This is one of those occasions where you knew you were right all along, you're not surprised that you were right, but you're still disappointed in how right you were.

PabloSerna said:

---

"trenches"? Is there a war going on?

---

*sigh*

Essentially being booted from my parish, yet thankfully accepted by another...

Made to feel less than Catholic by the powers that be in the Church...

Pushed to the peripheries and largely ignored despite the calls to minister to those on the peripheries...

Synodality for thee but not for me...

Traditiones Custodes and the subsequent Responsa ad Dubia...

Faithful Catholics living under the specter of their Mass and parish being snatched from them...

Being told what my motivation is for attending the old Mass despite it being a false attribution...


Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium. Imperet illi Deus, supplices deprecamur: tuque, Princeps militiae coelestis, Satanam aliosque spiritus malignos, qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo, divina virtute, in infernum detruda. Amen.

I am NO Catholic. Baptized and brought up in the NO as an adult, but I have been fortunate to attend parishes that focus reverence on the Eucharist and tried to keep to the intentions of V2. I has tried TLM, but never able to fully understand or experience it, but has many friends who find fulfillment, and are driven to serve God through the TLM, and are some of the most compassionate and community serving people I know (always working the shelter, food lines, kids work the pantries, lead the homeless ministry etc).


To be fair I have also known a few folks who attend the TLM, who have said very disheartening things about those of us that attend NO (and likewise I hav e heard many NO say sad statements about out TLM brothers/sisters.)


It saddens me that this division was expounded upon by our previous pontiff, and I think that much of it was done by a small, vocal minority in his ear. I think no matter what there will always be those who seek to divide us, and those that are holier than thou towards those they don't understand. I hope that our new Holy Father will relent on the changes and allow us to celebrate together, NO or TLM, whichever way sways our heart and leads us to Christ and to serve Christ isd the church militant on earth.

It can be the ultimate Catholic AND… we can have NO AND TLM, two can be one United in Christ and our Church.

747Ag said:

---

SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

---

I am NO Catholic. Baptized and brought up in the NO as an adult, but I have been fortunate to attend parishes that focus reverence on the Eucharist and tried to keep to the intentions of V2. I has tried TLM, but never able to fully understand or experience it, but has many friends who find fulfillment, and are driven to serve God through the TLM, and are some of the most compassionate and community serving people I know (always working the shelter, food lines, kids work the pantries, lead the homeless ministry etc).


To be fair I have also known a few folks who attend the TLM, who have said very disheartening things about those of us that attend NO (and likewise I hav e heard many NO say sad statements about out TLM brothers/sisters.)


It saddens me that this division was expounded upon by our previous pontiff, and I think that much of it was done by a small, vocal minority in his ear. I think no matter what there will always be those who seek to divide us, and those that are holier than thou towards those they don't understand. I hope that our new Holy Father will relent on the changes and allow us to celebrate together, NO or TLM, whichever way sways our heart and leads us to Christ and to serve Christ isd the church militant on earth.

It can be the ultimate Catholic AND… we can have NO AND TLM, two can be one United in Christ and our Church.

---

Bro, it'd be awesome to share a few brews again at the Dancing Bear.

---

Indeed. ''Twas simpler times back then.

Wish I could give you many stars for your very insightful post. I, too am in your court and pray for unity in our Catholic Church! Thank you for your post!

PabloSerna said:

---

I read your list and feel sad that you feel the way you do.

Of course it seems (to me) a bit disingenuous because I am sure no one physically kicked you out because of your preference for the TLM. I imagine it was canceled and you decided to leave instead of attending the Novus Ordo masses that replaced the TLM. Maybe there is more?

I'm sure you know by now that I believe in the reforms to the liturgy Vatican II started and the GRIM continued even into this millennium. I read through the article and it sounds to me less investigative reporting and more like a "gotcha" type piece. We both know that the Vatican is unlikely to roll this back and I don't agree with her premise that is was solely based on what a few Bishops expressed.

This whole TLM vs NO goes back farther than any survey Pope Francis solicited. Pope Paul VI noted that the biggest obstacle to implementing Vatican II would not be the faithful- but the clergy.

If there is one troubling sentence you wrote that is concerning is that someone made you feel less than Catholic because of your preference for the TLM. If that was me, mea culpa- I am sorry. I do not think Catholics who prefer the TLM are less Catholic- just hyper focused on something other than the mission of evangelization.

Glad you found a place to worship in the TLM.

---

Much of that list echoes what many Catholics with a devotion to the TLM feel. Others in other parts of the country have felt treated more harshly than what I and my community have experienced. FWIW, our bishop doesn't want to lose this community and never understood why Francis acted the way he did towards the Latin Mass and those who attend it.

Regarding my former parish... the story begins with a disingenuous "performance improvement plan" for the parish's music/liturgy director. This letter, from outgoing pastor and incoming pastor... both of the same religious order, complained about the use of the organ, not using the OCP books for hymns, the singing of Marian antiphons in the Novus Ordo post Communion (Salve Regina, Ave Regina Caelorum, etc...), and how the kids' choir approached for Holy Communion on Ash Wednesday (which was more the 6 mos prior and not really the responsibility of the choir director). The letter also stated that the Latin Mass would end at a date TBD. The same pastor has cut up some of the vestments (largely paid for by the TLM parishioners donations) to add on to others. He also refused to sell us (our Latin Mass society) the non-OCP hymnals he directed to be replaced by the OCP hymnals that where sitting in storage. Under this pastoral regime, we lived under suspicion. If parish hall (used for coffee & donuts) wasn't "just-so", we got a talkin' to. This includes kids' shoe marks on the linoleum floor. Pastors never visited us, despite several invitations. A friend was chastised, not counseled, in confession because the priest connected his confessed sin with a missal/book his son had in the confessional prior to him... "you trads are like this... etc etc etc". We weren't wanted. We were an inconvenience. We were an embarrassment. In all of this, our bishop intervened and moved us to another parish site.

I pray that Pope Leo will unite the Church, not divide it the way Francis did

The Marksman said:

---

I pray that Pope Leo will unite the Church, not divide it the way Francis did

---

For someone who was all about being "pastoral" and "accompaniment" he was very selective about who benefited from that wasn't he?

PabloSerna said:

---

HtownAg19 said:

---

The Marksman said:

---

I pray that Pope Leo will unite the Church, not divide it the way Francis did

---

For someone who was all about being "pastoral" and "accompaniment" he was very selective about who benefited from that wasn't he?

---

Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by "benefit"? From my perspective, I understood the 2021 letter that effectively limited the TLM was an effort to unify the world wide church under the same liturgy. This liturgy (novus ordo) is our highest prayer and one that embodies all of the aims of our universal call to holiness. In that light, he is right, as the shepherd of the universal church to guard against the faithful from straying.

---

So we have to unify the world under the same liturgy while then turning around and promulgating a "Mayan" and "Amazonian" rite?

Sed Contra:

But what is not done, what doesn’t happen in Catholic history and sound practice, is dependence on blithe, unsupported assertions that if something is “new” it must be from the Spirit and especially if it’s knocking down something “old” it’s quite obviously from the… https://t.co/nA4Fpq07So

— Amy Welborn (@amywelborn2) July 6, 2025

PabloSerna said:

---

HtownAg19 said:

---

The Marksman said:

---

I pray that Pope Leo will unite the Church, not divide it the way Francis did

---

For someone who was all about being "pastoral" and "accompaniment" he was very selective about who benefited from that wasn't he?

---

Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by "benefit"? From my perspective, I understood the 2021 letter that effectively limited the TLM was an effort to unify the world wide church under the same liturgy. This liturgy (novus ordo) is our highest prayer and one that embodies all of the aims of our universal call to holiness. In that light, he is right, as the shepherd of the universal church to guard against the faithful from straying.

---

Hello Pablo, can you explain this in light of the Anglican use, and the myriad different liturgies in the Eastern Catholic Churches? I'll hold.

"Complained about the use of the organ"

Was it cutting into the tambourine solo?

Quo Vadis? said:

---

"Complained about the use of the organ"

Was it cutting into the tambourine solo?

---

Perhaps it was an effort to get soprano saxophone... I kid, but that was a real thing in another local parish. OCP "hymns" with Kenny G style saxophone

747Ag said:

---

Quo Vadis? said:

---

"Complained about the use of the organ"

Was it cutting into the tambourine solo?

---

Perhaps it was an effort to get soprano saxophone... I kid, but that was a real thing in another local parish. OCP "hymns" with Kenny G style saxophone

---

To be honest it's refreshing to have a different connotation for "complaining about the use of an organ" that isn't in regards to Jesuit Seminaries

PabloSerna said:

---

Sorry for keeping you holding. See my comment above. Also, I'm sure you know the difference between Roman Catholic and Eastern Catholic- different rites, same Pope among other things.

---

You mentioned the purpose was to bring the entire world wide church into the same liturgy, was it not? Is the eastern church not a member of the world wide Catholic Church?

PabloSerna said:

---

The difference is in Rite and Liturgy. The Roman Rite is the most widespread in the world for the Catholic Church. The Novus Ordo is the newer form, while the TLM is based on the 1962 missal (in case some are wondering).

ETA: To be clear, we are talking about the Roman Rite.

---

I attend a N.O. Catholic Church. The wide variance in liturgical practices (and abuses) in the N.O. Liturgy and across Parishes undermines the point you are trying to make IMO.

ETA: some are more reverent and some are far from it. The same cannot be said of the Latin or Eastern Catholic Liturgies.

PabloSerna said:

---

Just in responding to the comments above- it seems that there is some misunderstanding between what the whole discussion about the Tradition Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo -is about and what it not about.

First, this is about the Roman Rite that is the most common Rite in the Catholic Church. Here is a quick breakdown:

• Latin Rite: The largest, also known as the Roman Rite.
• Byzantine Rite: Used by 14 Churches.
• Alexandrian Rite: Used by three Churches.
• Antiochian Rite: Used by three Churches.
• Armenian Rite: Used by one Church.
• Chaldean Rite: Used by two Churches.

It is the Roman Rite that we are discussing. At least, my understanding from some Roman Catholics, is that they prefer to stay in the Roman Rite, but reject the reforms to the liturgy since Vatican II and up through 2002. There was immediate rejection by some Roman Catholics, for example Archbishop Lefebrve who founded SSPX in 1970. Eventually he was excommunicated for unauthorized consecrations of bishops.

---

Your prior comment was regarding the entire world under one liturgy. If you misspoke, fine. If you want to narrow the discussion to the Latin Rite, fine. Quo Vadis question still stands, especially since "sole expression of the Roman Rite" was part of either Traditiones Custodes or its accompanying letter.

Can you explain this in light of the Ambrosian Rite, Rite of Braga, Mozarabic Rite, Rite of Lyon, Anglican Use, and the Zaire Use, and the myriad different liturgies in the Eastern Catholic Churches religious orders (Benedictine Rite, Carmelite Rite, Carthusian Rite, Cistercian Rite, Dominican Rite, and the Norbertine Rite)?

Quote:

---

The Popes, since Paul VI have limited the use of the 1962 Roman Missal because of the aims of Vatican II to include the laity in the highest prayer- the mass. The Novus Ordo allows for men, women, and children to participate in the mass in their language (vernacular) as a means to better instruct the faithful on the universal call to holiness. This is not a criticism of the beauty of the prior missal- rather an acknowledgment that many of the faithful were not making the connection in part because of the rubrics and language (Latin). This also led to what is called clericalism which mistakenly places the ordained ministers "above" the laity. The church calls us to be more like Christ, and live out the threefold office of Priest, Prophet, and King as we build up the Kingdom of God. All of this and more begin and end with the mass.

---

There is much digital ink spilled on the phrase "participatio actuosa" and its being translated as active participation or actual participation. Yet, in my time with the TLM, I have never thought myself to not be included. Rather, there are ample opportunities to contemplate the Sacred Mysteries in the more silent parts of the Mass. My own experience (take it for what it's worth) is that it's easier to pray in the Old Mass than in the New Mass. Your take here seems to be that they were trying to address so-called pewsitters "mailing it in" with respect to Mass attendance and prayer. I look around at typical parishes and find the same thing is still happening in large numbers despite of the Church's efforts.

PabloSerna said:

---

The discussion we are having is about the Traditional Latin Mass which as you know is based on the 1962 Roman Missal. Why would we start to expand this discussion beyond the Latin Rite (aka Roman Rite)?

---

Because you are advocating and supporting the suppression and restrictions being done to limit the Latin Mass in favor of the N.O Mass, while at the same time you are ignoring the other legitimate liturgical rites.

If the NO is the best form, and would bring unity to the church worldwide, why not apply the same standard to the Byzantine Liturgy or any of the other valid expressions?

PabloSerna said:

---

I don't doubt for a minute that there irregularities within the Novus Ordo from one side of the globe to the other or from one side Austin to the other. This is not the issue that the Magisterium is weighing in about.

Rather, it is about implementing the aims of Vatican II for the faithful through the mass. The Novus Ordo is a main part of the renewal even if there are irregularities. In time, those irregularities will work themselves out I believe.

---

wrong. In time the irregularities will grow wider and more diverse as liturgical abuses continue to become more accepted - unless steps are taken to reverse course. The Latin Mass is much less susceptible to Liturgical abuses vs. The NO.

Also, what makes the NO the main part of the renewal!? We are so far from what Vatican II that serious NO liturgical reform is needed.

Here's how the "renewal" is going

PabloSerna said:

---

I understood the 2021 letter that effectively limited the TLM was an effort to unify the world wide church under the same liturgy.

---

Whole Church... One liturgy.

PabloSerna said:

---

Latin Rite: The largest, also known as the Roman Rite.

---

On to the Latin Church...

PabloSerna said:

---

The discussion we are having is about the Traditional Latin Mass which as you know is based on the 1962 Roman Missal. Why would we start to expand this discussion beyond the Latin Rite (aka Roman Rite)?

---

Now we are speaking of one of the Latin Church's liturgies exclusively. Necking it down narrower and narrower.

The following rites are of and in the Latin Church: Ambrosian Rite, Rite of Braga, Mozarabic Rite, Rite of Lyon, Anglican Use, and the Zaire Use, and the myriad different liturgies in the religious orders (Benedictine Rite, Carmelite Rite, Carthusian Rite, Cistercian Rite, Dominican Rite, and the Norbertine Rite). They are all Latin Rite. So much for the sole expression argument.