I think it is telling that some Catholics lower themselves into ridiculing another liturgy instead of standing on the merits of their preferred liturgy.
Vatican Report Exposes Cracks in Foundation of Traditionis Custodes
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Last: 9 days ago by fc2112
Ok. Mr smells and bells…
PabloSerna said:
I think it is telling that some Catholics lower themselves into ridiculing another liturgy instead of standing on the merits of their preferred liturgy.
I think the concern we are voicing against your position is the WE are the ones taking a "live and let live" approach on this issue. Traditional Catholics are just asking for freedom and to be able to attend TLM and worship according to the Liturgy of Catholics for well over the past 1,000 years. YOU and your camp are the ones working to force them to be like you and worship like you think they should. It is the liberal wing of the Church (that you support and defend) including Francis that are using totalitarian tactics, secrecy, and deceit to force their "preferred liturgy" onto Traditional Catholics. Trad Catholics just want to be left alone to do their thing but that is not good enough for you and your camp. Francis took proactive steps to divide the church and drive a wedge between TLM and NO. It was not necessary, and in fact he did more harm than good.
Personal Experience & Rant:
I attend a NO Parish on the more reverent and conservative side but not a super traditional liturgy. I think our pastor does the best he can to cater Masses to the various needs and desires of his diverse flock in attempt to give the people an experience they like, or at least something we can broadly accept (tolerate). Unfortunately it is an impossible task to meet everyone's individual preferences and I think it is unfair to our priests that we place this added burden on their shoulders. Each Sunday Mass offers us a different type of experience - but a fairly consistent style for the specific Mass time. We have some Mass times with incense and some without. The mass parts sung by the congregation are different and the music style varies somewhat too, so if you prefer no drums you need to go to the 7AM Sunday Mass, or if you prefer the contemporary music with drums plan on attending the Sunday evening Mass. When you let your personal schedule choose your Mass times be prepared to tune out the distractions the best you can. The Priest and the Altar Servers are the only things that are consistent from Mass to Mass with the "laity participation" creating the worship environment for that Mass.
Here is the problem. We have completely inverted the focus of our worship and most people fail to even notice. The Mass focus becomes more about the laity participation and the various likes and dislikes of the people and distracts us from what we are there to do...which is worship God through the holy sacrifice of the Mass. What we end up with is a bunch of laity mini-performances taking place throughout the Mass and the priest is just working to squeeze the priestly liturgy into the chaos of everything else swirling around him in the spirit of laity participation. The end result is that nobody thinks they are getting all of what they want out of Mass, and everyone leaves thinking..."I liked that song" or "I didn't like insert blank". The flow of the Mass is disjointed and the faithful are not given the space, time, or peace needed to enter into deeper prayer. We are constantly bombarded with a new voice or a new stimulation that prevents us from turning off our earthly world to place ourselves at the foot of the cross and the proper disposition encounter Jesus in the Eucharist. People leave the Mass talking about the music or the reader and tend to miss the fact that they just encountered God physically and spiritually.
If you think I am wrong just observe the majority of people at your Mass this Sunday and you will see that most barely appear to be participating at all or seem to be going through the motions (St. Mary's in College Station being an exception). A small fraction of the laity have an official participatory role in the spirit of V2 (lector, cantor, EM, choir member/musician/etc.). Do all of these individual performances add something to congregation's ability to worship or does it serve to distract from their ability to worship? Do the drums help you pray when you are kneeling after communion and trying to pray with Jesus on your tongue, or does the drum beat intrude and distract you from your ability to pray? Where in the typical NO Mass are we given a moment of peace to stop the world and pray?
Speaking of the Eucharist: Do we really need to question why so many teenagers struggle with the belief that Jesus is truly present body, blood, soul, and divinity? Is it not obvious when you see the TLM side by side with the typical NO liturgy that there is an objective difference in how the sacrifice is presented? You can watch the two liturgies without sound and try to make the case that they are done wit the same reverence. You cannot.
My son and my daughter are altar servers and our altar server ministry is probably one of the very best anywhere in the NO world. They are reverent, dignified, serious, and never draw undo attention to themselves or their service. Even though I have my personal thoughts on female altar servers, I am not going to deny my daughter serving because we are in a parish where it is accepted and I am happy she loves serving and being closer and. more active in the Liturgy...so I am not overly rigid in my views (perhaps I should be) and I understand laity participation. However, my daughter also understands that the Priesthood and Diaconate are a uniquely male institution. (Side Note topic for another day - I do think allowing female altar servers has directly contributed to the decline in priestly vocations for young men).
I can count on one hand the number of Latin Masses I have attended in my lifetime, but they were beautiful and I want the Latin Mass to continue forever because it is a timeless, holy, and consistent expression of our Christian faith. In TLM we will never see the kinds of offensive and ugly abuses we see regularly in the NO. It is my prayer that Pope Leo does a course correction on the harms that Francis has done to the TLM.
Touche- That was a slap. However, the Novus Ordo still retains the "smells and bells".
PabloSerna said:
Touche- That was a slap. However, the Novus Ordo still retains the "smells and bells".
...sometimes.
Faithful Ag said:PabloSerna said:
I think it is telling that some Catholics lower themselves into ridiculing another liturgy instead of standing on the merits of their preferred liturgy.
I think the concern we are voicing against your position is the WE are the ones taking a "live and let live" approach on this issue. Traditional Catholics are just asking for freedom and to be able to attend TLM and worship according to the Liturgy of Catholics for well over the past 1,000 years. YOU and your camp are the ones working to force them to be like you and worship like you think they should. It is the liberal wing of the Church (that you support and defend) including Francis that are using totalitarian tactics, secrecy, and deceit to force their "preferred liturgy" onto Traditional Catholics. Trad Catholics just want to be left alone to do their thing but that is not good enough for you and your camp. Francis took proactive steps to divide the church and drive a wedge between TLM and NO. It was not necessary, and in fact he did more harm than good.
Personal Experience & Rant:
I attend a NO Parish on the more reverent and conservative side but not a super traditional liturgy. I think our pastor does the best he can to cater Masses to the various needs and desires of his diverse flock in attempt to give the people an experience they like, or at least something we can broadly accept (tolerate). Unfortunately it is an impossible task to meet everyone's individual preferences and I think it is unfair to our priests that we place this added burden on their shoulders. Each Sunday Mass offers us a different type of experience - but a fairly consistent style for the specific Mass time. We have some Mass times with incense and some without. The mass parts sung by the congregation are different and the music style varies somewhat too, so if you prefer no drums you need to go to the 7AM Sunday Mass, or if you prefer the contemporary music with drums plan on attending the Sunday evening Mass. When you let your personal schedule choose your Mass times be prepared to tune out the distractions the best you can. The Priest and the Altar Servers are the only things that are consistent from Mass to Mass with the "laity participation" creating the worship environment for that Mass.
Here is the problem. We have completely inverted the focus of our worship and most people fail to even notice. The Mass focus becomes more about the laity participation and the various likes and dislikes of the people and distracts us from what we are there to do...which is worship God through the holy sacrifice of the Mass. What we end up with is a bunch of laity mini-performances taking place throughout the Mass and the priest is just working to squeeze the priestly liturgy into the chaos of everything else swirling around him in the spirit of laity participation. The end result is that nobody thinks they are getting all of what they want out of Mass, and everyone leaves thinking..."I liked that song" or "I didn't like insert blank". The flow of the Mass is disjointed and the faithful are not given the space, time, or peace needed to enter into deeper prayer. We are constantly bombarded with a new voice or a new stimulation that prevents us from turning off our earthly world to place ourselves at the foot of the cross and the proper disposition encounter Jesus in the Eucharist. People leave the Mass talking about the music or the reader and tend to miss the fact that they just encountered God physically and spiritually.
If you think I am wrong just observe the majority of people at your Mass this Sunday and you will see that most barely appear to be participating at all or seem to be going through the motions (St. Mary's in College Station being an exception). A small fraction of the laity have an official participatory role in the spirit of V2 (lector, cantor, EM, choir member/musician/etc.). Do all of these individual performances add something to congregation's ability to worship or does it serve to distract from their ability to worship? Do the drums help you pray when you are kneeling after communion and trying to pray with Jesus on your tongue, or does the drum beat intrude and distract you from your ability to pray? Where in the typical NO Mass are we given a moment of peace to stop the world and pray?
Speaking of the Eucharist: Do we really need to question why so many teenagers struggle with the belief that Jesus is truly present body, blood, soul, and divinity? Is it not obvious when you see the TLM side by side with the typical NO liturgy that there is an objective difference in how the sacrifice is presented? You can watch the two liturgies without sound and try to make the case that they are done wit the same reverence. You cannot.
My son and my daughter are altar servers and our altar server ministry is probably one of the very best anywhere in the NO world. They are reverent, dignified, serious, and never draw undo attention to themselves or their service. Even though I have my personal thoughts on female altar servers, I am not going to deny my daughter serving because we are in a parish where it is accepted and I am happy she loves serving and being closer and. more active in the Liturgy...so I am not overly rigid in my views (perhaps I should be) and I understand laity participation. However, my daughter also understands that the Priesthood and Diaconate are a uniquely male institution. (Side Note topic for another day - I do think allowing female altar servers has directly contributed to the decline in priestly vocations for young men).
I can count on one hand the number of Latin Masses I have attended in my lifetime, but they were beautiful and I want the Latin Mass to continue forever because it is a timeless, holy, and consistent expression of our Christian faith. In TLM we will never see the kinds of offensive and ugly abuses we see regularly in the NO. It is my prayer that Pope Leo does a course correction on the harms that Francis has done to the TLM.
Bro... Bravo. We differ in mintuae. Like permitting girls to serve even with direct catechesis on the nature of the ministerial priesthood.
Thanks. I don't think we differ in our views about it or the rationale and theology behind male altar servers. Rather, I am just a father caving into the modern world and church getting along to go along to some extent. Maybe I am weak when I should be strong, but being a NO parishioner I have decided not to fight that fight for better or worse.
Faithful Ag said:
Thanks. I don't think we differ in our views about it or the rationale and theology behind male altar servers. Rather, I am just a father caving into the modern world and church getting along to go along to some extent. Maybe I am weak when I should be strong, but being a NO parishioner I have decided not to fight that fight for better or worse.
Having daughters do things to a man. They are our princesses
Faithful Ag said:
Thanks. I don't think we differ in our views about it or the rationale and theology behind male altar servers. Rather, I am just a father caving into the modern world and church getting along to go along to some extent. Maybe I am weak when I should be strong, but being a NO parishioner I have decided not to fight that fight for better or worse.
My kids attend Lifeteen. I'm not a big fan, but it's the only game in town for youth group. Lots of other families from our homeschool group are there too, some of which are TLM families. We used to have a different option at our old parish, but new pastoral leadership came and it disintegrated pretty quickly. We do what we can. We pick battles based on our particular circumstances. Keep fighting for your wife and kids. We all have failed them to some degree in some fashion, yet we must get up, dust it off, seek forgiveness, resolve to do better and continue on. My battles and failures are not yours, nor Quo Vadis', and nor Pablo's, yet I trust we are all seeking after the Heart of Christ.
First off, thanks for sharing your frustrations and personal experience.
I do want to express that I do not see the liturgical reforms since Vatican II as being progressive nor liberal. One could argue that they go back to the very first years of the church when the mass occurred in the homes of the laity and not in designated churches. That could be a separate discussion. Same with female deacons that are recognized in the early church; don't be surprised if the church returns to that in the near future.
Here is a (LINK) to a article about what the Liturgy was like before Vatican II and why the Church saw its first task was the renewal of the liturgy as a means to better catechize the laity to live out the universal calling to holiness.
What you will find is that these reforms are necessary for the life of the church and not some attempt to water down the liturgy for the sake of lay participation. We can all recognize the beauty of Gregorian chant even if we cannot understand a word of it- but that leaves us as mere spectators and not active participants. This is what the Church saw as a major problem if the Church was to move away from clericalism wherein only the holy were those wearing the robes instead of the laity who needed to heed the calling of becoming the hands and feet of Christ. All of this works together- the mass, the gospel, the Eucharist, being sent into the world. We say this all the time at mass- not many choose to live it.
I can agree that there are some issues with the choice of music, the casualness of dress, or the liberties taken with the prayers at some Novus Ordo liturgies, but I still believe that these reforms are needed to bring about a more active people who can carry out the gospel message Christ has given us. Time will tell.
I do want to express that I do not see the liturgical reforms since Vatican II as being progressive nor liberal. One could argue that they go back to the very first years of the church when the mass occurred in the homes of the laity and not in designated churches. That could be a separate discussion. Same with female deacons that are recognized in the early church; don't be surprised if the church returns to that in the near future.
Here is a (LINK) to a article about what the Liturgy was like before Vatican II and why the Church saw its first task was the renewal of the liturgy as a means to better catechize the laity to live out the universal calling to holiness.
What you will find is that these reforms are necessary for the life of the church and not some attempt to water down the liturgy for the sake of lay participation. We can all recognize the beauty of Gregorian chant even if we cannot understand a word of it- but that leaves us as mere spectators and not active participants. This is what the Church saw as a major problem if the Church was to move away from clericalism wherein only the holy were those wearing the robes instead of the laity who needed to heed the calling of becoming the hands and feet of Christ. All of this works together- the mass, the gospel, the Eucharist, being sent into the world. We say this all the time at mass- not many choose to live it.
I can agree that there are some issues with the choice of music, the casualness of dress, or the liberties taken with the prayers at some Novus Ordo liturgies, but I still believe that these reforms are needed to bring about a more active people who can carry out the gospel message Christ has given us. Time will tell.
Just know with certainty that you are not alone. What you described is EXACTLY what my wife and I have been saying for a pretty good while, now. We are thirty year converts and I would describe our journey as one where
"we read our way into the Faith". We embraced what Sacred Scripture, the Early Church Fathers, the Saints, many prolific scholars, theologians, etc have taught for 2,000 plus years about the Catholic Church.
We now find ourselves in much the same circumstances as you do. We have clapping for Birthdays, anniversaries, you name it. We have talking, continuous loud intrusive talking while we and others are trying to pray. We have long homilies about the Eucharist, and yet, we are rushed through the Celebration of the Eucharist, and refused Adoration. We are asked to pray for Vocations, but there is no time or place (Adoration) for young men and women to discern the Priesthood or Call to the Religious Life.
Simply put the sense of Sacredness is just not there.
"we read our way into the Faith". We embraced what Sacred Scripture, the Early Church Fathers, the Saints, many prolific scholars, theologians, etc have taught for 2,000 plus years about the Catholic Church.
We now find ourselves in much the same circumstances as you do. We have clapping for Birthdays, anniversaries, you name it. We have talking, continuous loud intrusive talking while we and others are trying to pray. We have long homilies about the Eucharist, and yet, we are rushed through the Celebration of the Eucharist, and refused Adoration. We are asked to pray for Vocations, but there is no time or place (Adoration) for young men and women to discern the Priesthood or Call to the Religious Life.
Simply put the sense of Sacredness is just not there.
Gig'em, Ole Army Class of '70
Quo Vadis? said:FIDO95 said:
I don't disagree with any of what you have laid out. There have clearly two tiers of justice. Nonetheless, we should hope and pray for unity. I recently watched an interview (3 hours!?!) with Matt Fradd and Voice of Reason. I'm a big fan of both. It's hard for to disagree with his plan "If I were Pope". Just for reference, when he is discuss the parish/service in Omaha, Nebraska he is referring to an earlier point in the interview. He had discussed how by chance while traveling, he attended a Mass there and it was the most reverent NO Mass he had ever attended.
Hard for me to take Voice of Reason seriously, he knows his stuff, but his polemics against the SSPX for embracing a more traditional form of Christianity are hypocritical since he left the Latin Church for the same reason and went Byzantine
This took a dark turn in light of the recent allegations against VoR
nm
PabloSerna said:
Here is a (LINK) to a article about what the Liturgy was like before Vatican II and why the Church saw its first task was the renewal of the liturgy as a means to better catechize the laity to live out the universal calling to holiness.
I am guessing I am one of the few here who regularly attended Mass pre V2 and can remember it. The link shown is dead nuts on what it was like at the churches we attended.
Mom had us say rosaries during Mass since we kids had no idea what was going on at the altar. Father mumbled through everything as fast as he could. I remember going to communion while the Mass was still going on. I remember being happy when Father skipped the Homily. And I remember getting there during the readings and leaving right after Communion.
I'm sure the TLM being said now are much more reverent since very few willingly go those masses unless they want to go through that.
Quote:
As for there being no abuses before 1970, dream on. All the old guys I trained under for the Latin Mass (back in the mid 1980s) told me that it was dreadful how the mass was celebrated in the old days: mumbled Latin, skipped prayers, half genuflections, not even waiting for the servers to finish before moving on to the next prayer; masses that should have taken a good 40 minutes to celebrate reverently were routinely done in 18 minutes.
Communion was routinely distributed in larger parishes by priests, beginning immediately after the gospel, while the priest celebrant went on with the current Mass; sung liturgies were abhorred by most clergy and when they did sing them they were usually done in a horrible and tortured tone with indistinct pronunciation since they were not used to enunciating the Latin, but mumbling it. So when they sang, most just mumbled aloud.
I have heard recordings from the time and can personally affirm that homilies were often skipped, even on Sundays. Most of the old guys said the Corpus Domini nostri prayer while they gave communion to as many as five people, mumbling it as a norm. The Liber Usualis had long been abandoned by most parishes and they used recto tono (usually 8th tone) chanting in its place . . . . People came late and left early and had legalistic notions that if they made it by the gospel they were safe. Leaving after communion was epidemic.
Wow, I had no idea about that. I looked into it after seeing your post.
It is certainly true, the closer to move to Christ, the harder the demons will fight to pull you back. I hope those allegations aren't true as I think he has been a great Catholic apologist. However, the way that the evidence is presented is in the article I read paints a damning picture. I have seen situations like this where a young adult (early 20s) has got caught up with a mature looking teen. However, in this case would appear that he knew she was underage and continued to carry on the scandalous texts. I will pray for him and his victim.
It is certainly true, the closer to move to Christ, the harder the demons will fight to pull you back. I hope those allegations aren't true as I think he has been a great Catholic apologist. However, the way that the evidence is presented is in the article I read paints a damning picture. I have seen situations like this where a young adult (early 20s) has got caught up with a mature looking teen. However, in this case would appear that he knew she was underage and continued to carry on the scandalous texts. I will pray for him and his victim.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Have you thought about entering a lay apostolate? Sometimes that is the next step?
HtownAg19 said:
Here's how the "renewal" is going
What did I just watch?
Captain Pablo said:HtownAg19 said:
Here's how the "renewal" is going
What did I just watch?
I really doubt that is a Mass, even though the title suggests it is.
fc2112 said:Captain Pablo said:HtownAg19 said:
Here's how the "renewal" is going
What did I just watch?
I really doubt that is a Mass, even though the title suggests it is.
That's possible. I certainly hope you are right because that sucks
EDIT - the bubble thing. Seriously, that was about the cringiest thing I've ever seen. The way that guy giggled like a school girl.
But I have seen deacons get pretty outside the lines for demonstrative purposes during their homily, but nothing that bad. That said, yeah, I could see something like that happening during a mass, at a goofy parish that's into that kind of crap
The kool and the gang stuff? who knows
fc2112 said:Captain Pablo said:HtownAg19 said:
Here's how the "renewal" is going
What did I just watch?
I really doubt that is a Mass, even though the title suggests it is.
That is 100% a Mass. the priest is wearing the Chasuble
HtownAg19 said:fc2112 said:Captain Pablo said:HtownAg19 said:
Here's how the "renewal" is going
What did I just watch?
I really doubt that is a Mass, even though the title suggests it is.
That is 100% a Mass. the priest is wearing the Chasuble
Ahhh. Yep
Captain Pablo said:fc2112 said:Captain Pablo said:HtownAg19 said:
Here's how the "renewal" is going
What did I just watch?
I really doubt that is a Mass, even though the title suggests it is.
That's possible. I certainly hope you are right because that sucks
EDIT - the bubble thing. Seriously, that was about the cringiest thing I've ever seen. The way that guy giggled like a school girl.
I could see that happening during a mass somewhere. I have seen deacons get pretty outside the lines for demonstrative purposes during their homily, but nothing that bad. That said, yeah, I could see something like that happening during a mass, at a goofy parish that's into that kind of crap
The kool and the gang stuff? who knows
Holy Family... Inverness, IL
Archdiocese of Chicago
Taken from their live stream.
Cardinal Cupich appears to permit such things as this and the guitar blessing. Another parish, perhaps this one, had two gay men preach the homily on Father's Day. Then there's Fr. Pfleger of St. Sabina's.
747Ag said:Captain Pablo said:fc2112 said:Captain Pablo said:HtownAg19 said:
Here's how the "renewal" is going
What did I just watch?
I really doubt that is a Mass, even though the title suggests it is.
That's possible. I certainly hope you are right because that sucks
EDIT - the bubble thing. Seriously, that was about the cringiest thing I've ever seen. The way that guy giggled like a school girl.
I could see that happening during a mass somewhere. I have seen deacons get pretty outside the lines for demonstrative purposes during their homily, but nothing that bad. That said, yeah, I could see something like that happening during a mass, at a goofy parish that's into that kind of crap
The kool and the gang stuff? who knows
Holy Family... Inverness, IL
Archdiocese of Chicago
Taken from their live stream.
Cardinal Cupich appears to permit such things as this and the guitar blessing. Another parish, perhaps this one, had two gay men preach the homily on Father's Day. Then there's Fr. Pfleger of St. Sabina's.
I got to this thread late, but the discussion went pretty much as one would expect, with the usual suspect(s) dismissing these abominations as part of a drive for "unity"
Always about "unity" with these people, which is of course a lie. It's only "unity" because everything else gets quashed, not because of consensus. "Unity", but only if it is to their liking
Here's a pretty good article if you are interested
https://www.ncregister.com/news/the-city-of-big-shoulders-and-liturgical-confusion-chicago-faithful-flummoxed-by-inconsistent-liturgy-policy?amp
Vatican approves the continuation of Latin Mass in the archdiocese of San Angelo. Aggie related because the current bishop, Bishop Micheal Sis, was the priest at St Mary's when I was in Aggieland. The request was granted based on his letter of appeal.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
FIDO95 said:
Vatican approves the continuation of Latin Mass in the archdiocese of San Angelo. Aggie related because the current bishop, Bishop Micheal Sis, was the priest at St Mary's when I was in Aggieland. The request was granted based on his letter of appeal.
Uh Oh. Pope Leo showing "disunity"
Some people around here aren't gonna like that
Nothing wrong with a take and see approach. It's a 2 year extension. Keep your shirt on Captain.
Also, don't mischaracterize my comments about unity. They are consistent with Rome.
Also, don't mischaracterize my comments about unity. They are consistent with Rome.
FIDO95 said:
Vatican approves the continuation of Latin Mass in the archdiocese of San Angelo. Aggie related because the current bishop, Bishop Micheal Sis, was the priest at St Mary's when I was in Aggieland. The request was granted based on his letter of appeal.
Misleading name. One can attend the Ordinary Form in Latin.
What was approved was usage of the Extraordinary Form.
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