Calvin's treatise on "The Necessity of Reforming the Church"

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nortex97
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I think we get hung up on the speaker/preacher a bit too often, but Piper's been so prevalent the last 20 years it's easy to pull his material, and he's fairly 'orthodox' overall for high calvinists. I have a digital book, "Whosoever will: A Biblical-Theological Critique of Five-Point Calvinism" from 2010 by David L. Allen & Steve W. Lemke.

It's basically written as a skeptical critique of Calvinism, but I chuckle at some of the parts that show the lack of real study/seriousness/education/training in Protestantism in America today/15 years ago (on all sides). I can't paste images but here is one such example;
Quote:

A distinction can be drawn between one who is a Calvinist or Reformed (that is, someone who embraces all or most of the doctrines of Calvinism) and one who is Calvinistic (that is, someone who embraces some doctrines of Calvinism). Some Baptists are Calvinistic in their soteriology but not Calvinist in the Reformed sense of the term. Richard A. Muller, as a former member of the Calvin Theological Seminary faculty, holds indisputable Calvinist credentials. He has debunked in Calvin Theological Journal the notion that evangelicals such as Baptists who think of themselves as Calvinists can appropriately claim to be Calvinists simply because they believe in the five points of Calvinist soteriology:

I once met a minister who introduced himself to me as a "five-point Calvinist." I later learned that, in addition to being a self-confessed five-point Calvinist, he was also an anti-paedobaptist who assumed that the church was a voluntary association of adult believers, that the sacraments were not means of grace but were merely "ordinances" of the church, that there was more than one covenant offering salvation in the time between the Fall and the eschaton, and that the church could expect a thousand-year reign on earth after Christ's Second Coming but before the end of the world. He recognized no creeds or confessions of the church as binding in any way. I also found out that he regularly preached on the "five points" in such a way as to indicate the difficulty in finding assurance of salvation: He often taught his congregation that they had to examine their repentance continually in order to determine whether they had exerted themselves enough in renouncing the world and in "accepting" Christ. This view of Christian life was totally in accord with his conception of the church as a visible, voluntary association of "born again" adults who had "a personal relationship with Jesus."

In retrospect, I recognize that I should not have been terribly surprised at the doctrinal context or at the practical application of the famous five points by this ministeralthough at the time I was astonished. After all, here was a person, proud to be a five-point Calvinist, whose doctrines would have been repudiated by Calvin. In fact, his doctrines would have gotten him tossed out of Geneva had he arrived there with his brand of "Calvinism" at any time during the late sixteenth or the seventeenth century. Perhaps, more to the point, his beliefs stood outside of the theological limits presented by the great confessions of the Reformed churcheswhether the Second Helvetic Confession of the Swiss Reformed church or the Belgic Confession and the Heidelberg Catechism of the Dutch Reformed churches or the Westminster standards of the Presbyterian churches. He was, in short, an American evangelical.

Muller disdained "Particular Baptists" such as John Gill because Gill did not embrace the rest of the Calvinist doctrines.8 To be fully Calvinistic (Reformed) requires much more than the five points often associated with the Synod of Dort. For Muller, to be truly a Calvinist requires the affirmation of other beliefs such as the baptism of infants, the identification of sacraments as means of grace, and an amillennial eschatology.9 When these additional Calvinist doctrines "are stripped away or forgotten," Muller laments, "the remaining famous five make very little sense."10 From the perspective of a true Calvinist, Baptists are modified Calvinists at best. Nobody in the SBC measures up to this standard of Calvinism. The SBC has Southern Baptists who are Calvinistic in some aspects of their soteriology but Southern Baptist Calvinists do not endorse all doctrines of Reformed theology.

It's tough on message boards to convey a message kindly without sounding harsh/condemning of others, but I think it's a fair (only around 280 pages) critique overall from some well learned authors.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

DarkBrandon01 said:

dermdoc said:

DarkBrandon01 said:

dermdoc said:

Calvinism says
God is Sovereign.
In His Sovereignty, He alone preordains who is saved and who is damned. So He knowingly creates people who are eternally damned. With no chance of salvation.

To me, it is completely illogical.
I have no idea how Calvinists interpret Scripture that state God desires all to be saved.
Or that God is love. And combine that with theology that states that this loving God creates people for eternal conscious torment. To show His glory.
Strange interpretation of "love" in my opinion.

But this is only my thought process. And I love and applaud my Calvinist brothers/sisters in Christ for their faith.
I can not go there and as I have said, maybe it is me.

I think this can be easily resolved with 4 point Calvinism (TUIP).

From this perspective, God desires that all choose salvation through common grace. Christ died for everyone, and while it is possible to choose Christ, no one is righteous enough to make this choice through common grace alone. This lack of righteousness is the fault of man and not God. Thus, only saving grace given can bring someone to faith.



But if God desires all to be saved, why do you think some are not? Who can thwart God's desires?

He desires that people choose him without making them choose, but no one chooses him and so he forces the elect to.

I disagree. I do not think God forces anyone to choose Him.

How do you characterize Paul's conversion then?

Could Paul have refused? Scripture does not say.

Exactly. To say that God forced his hand is saying more than the Bible says. All we can say is that God showed up in an incredible way and had a profound impact on Paul

So, now we are taking a strict line in the sand approach on scripture, eh? If scripture is silent, so shall I be, says the tradition loving Catholic

Even if I indulge this idea that it was POSSIBLE for Paul to say no thanks and continue on to Damascus, there still must be an acknowledgement of God's obvious intervention in the life of this very specific person. Do we all have this same opportunity and intervention from God, so that we are all on a level playing field and have the ability to accept Christ as Savior? If not, how is that fair? Is God unjust for giving someone like Paul a major life-altering experience versus not others?

Just curious, do you think the idea of free will detracts from God's sovereignty? I believe it actually enhances it. And also adds love.
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dermdoc
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Why the need to create "2 wills" of God? Unless you are trying to explain Scripture that disagrees with TULIP and ECT hell?
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nortex97
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There are textual reasons, going back past the synod of Dort. I'm not real interested in defending ect hell tho.
dermdoc
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nortex97 said:

There are textual reasons, going back past the synod of Dort. I'm not real interested in defending ect hell tho.


It just seems like they make it so complicated. It is like adhering to their particular theology is more important than the simple Gospel.
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nortex97
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dermdoc said:

nortex97 said:

There are textual reasons, going back past the synod of Dort. I'm not real interested in defending ect hell tho.


It just seems like they make it so complicated. It is like adhering to their particular theology is more important than the simple Gospel.

It's just cleaner, to them. There are real paradoxes of the NT of course (not just Christ's parables/beautitudes etc), so presuming a wish vs. will helps clean it up in this soteriology.

Some have pointed out that if/as God desires the salvation of all, He might also then require a response of faith/belief on the part of the hearer. This antecedent/consequent wills approach sees no conflict between the two wills of God. God antecedently wills all to be saved. But then it is easier to believe that for those who individually refuse to repent and believe, He consequently wills that they should be condemned? Some of this is an effort to avoid assigning sin to God, imho, or just a fanciful hope that God just let's that all slide if they refuse.

And THAT also is highly offensive to the Calvinist purists as it means man (or many men/women) can/do successfully resist God's will (in addition to those who are never preached/receive word of the Gospel). In some ways, as such, the Calvinist belief in the total depravity/inability of man to reject God if it is His desire/grace, cleans up rather than complicates complex historical/theological matters. It's great to embrace "God is Love," "the truth shall set you free" or "every knee shall bow" but in truth to the scholarly/philosophically minded Christianity is a pretty deep faith to those who take it seriously, imho, which is why these discussions are fun.
dermdoc
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nortex97 said:

dermdoc said:

nortex97 said:

There are textual reasons, going back past the synod of Dort. I'm not real interested in defending ect hell tho.


It just seems like they make it so complicated. It is like adhering to their particular theology is more important than the simple Gospel.

It's just cleaner, to them. There are real paradoxes of the NT of course (not just Christ's parables/beautitudes etc), so presuming a wish vs. will helps clean it up in this soteriology.

Some have pointed out that if/as God desires the salvation of all, He might also then require a response of faith/belief on the part of the hearer. This antecedent/consequent wills approach sees no conflict between the two wills of God. God antecedently wills all to be saved. But then it is easier to believe that for those who individually refuse to repent and believe, He consequently wills that they should be condemned? Some of this is an effort to avoid assigning sin to God, imho, or just a fanciful hope that God just let's that all slide if they refuse.

And THAT also is highly offensive to the Calvinist purists as it means man (or many men/women) can/do successfully resist God's will (in addition to those who are never preached/receive word of the Gospel). In some ways, as such, the Calvinist belief in the total depravity/inability of man to reject God if it is His desire/grace, cleans up rather than complicates complex historical/theological matters. It's great to embrace "God is Love," "the truth shall set you free" or "every knee shall bow" but in truth to the scholarly/philosophically minded Christianity is a pretty deep faith to those who take it seriously, imho, which is why these discussions are fun.


I guess. Calvinism to me is very depressing and dark. The word Gospel means good news. Calvinism says it is good news only for the elect. And horrible news for everyone else created by God.
Eternal conscious torment. Just because. Makes me sick.
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dermdoc
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And I will continue to believe in Christian Universalism. Refining punishment not punishment just for the "hell" of it.
That God is good and loves everyone He created. That He would not and could not pre ordain people He created to ECT hell.

And if I am wrong, so be it.

Shalom.
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10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

nortex97 said:

dermdoc said:

nortex97 said:

There are textual reasons, going back past the synod of Dort. I'm not real interested in defending ect hell tho.


It just seems like they make it so complicated. It is like adhering to their particular theology is more important than the simple Gospel.

It's just cleaner, to them. There are real paradoxes of the NT of course (not just Christ's parables/beautitudes etc), so presuming a wish vs. will helps clean it up in this soteriology.

Some have pointed out that if/as God desires the salvation of all, He might also then require a response of faith/belief on the part of the hearer. This antecedent/consequent wills approach sees no conflict between the two wills of God. God antecedently wills all to be saved. But then it is easier to believe that for those who individually refuse to repent and believe, He consequently wills that they should be condemned? Some of this is an effort to avoid assigning sin to God, imho, or just a fanciful hope that God just let's that all slide if they refuse.

And THAT also is highly offensive to the Calvinist purists as it means man (or many men/women) can/do successfully resist God's will (in addition to those who are never preached/receive word of the Gospel). In some ways, as such, the Calvinist belief in the total depravity/inability of man to reject God if it is His desire/grace, cleans up rather than complicates complex historical/theological matters. It's great to embrace "God is Love," "the truth shall set you free" or "every knee shall bow" but in truth to the scholarly/philosophically minded Christianity is a pretty deep faith to those who take it seriously, imho, which is why these discussions are fun.


I guess. Calvinism to me is very depressing and dark. The word Gospel means good news. Calvinism says it is good news only for the elect. And horrible news for everyone else created by God.
Eternal conscious torment. Just because. Makes me sick.

One thing I really appreciate about you, Derm, is that the idea of souls perishing in hell and eventually in the eternal Lake of Fire makes you sick. I have come to learn much from this posture of yours and believe it is how we should view it.

The Banned
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dermdoc said:

And I will continue to believe in Christian Universalism. Refining punishment not punishment just for the "hell" of it.
That God is good and loves everyone He created. That He would not and could not pre ordain people He created to ECT hell.

And if I am wrong, so be it.

Shalom.

I appreciate how you want to hold onto universalism, because it seems to come from a very genuine desire for all to be saved. There are two significant issues though.

1. If we are 100% certain to go to Heaven, then we have no choice. If we have no choice, there can be no genuine love. There is only forced compliance with shorter, less painful timelines for some rather than others.

2. There is a reason that the denominations/particular congregations where universalism is espoused, the seriousness of sin is devalued. If everyone is going to be saved, then naturally their choices here on earth mean nothing in the long run.

There is a very real danger in universalism. The best we can wish for is that everyone chooses to respond to God's grace offered to them, but to teach/believe that it will happens leaves the concept of repentance hollow. We'll just repent whenever God finally forces us to, which is no repentance at all.
Howdy, it is me!
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If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

nortex97 said:

dermdoc said:

nortex97 said:

There are textual reasons, going back past the synod of Dort. I'm not real interested in defending ect hell tho.


It just seems like they make it so complicated. It is like adhering to their particular theology is more important than the simple Gospel.

It's just cleaner, to them. There are real paradoxes of the NT of course (not just Christ's parables/beautitudes etc), so presuming a wish vs. will helps clean it up in this soteriology.

Some have pointed out that if/as God desires the salvation of all, He might also then require a response of faith/belief on the part of the hearer. This antecedent/consequent wills approach sees no conflict between the two wills of God. God antecedently wills all to be saved. But then it is easier to believe that for those who individually refuse to repent and believe, He consequently wills that they should be condemned? Some of this is an effort to avoid assigning sin to God, imho, or just a fanciful hope that God just let's that all slide if they refuse.

And THAT also is highly offensive to the Calvinist purists as it means man (or many men/women) can/do successfully resist God's will (in addition to those who are never preached/receive word of the Gospel). In some ways, as such, the Calvinist belief in the total depravity/inability of man to reject God if it is His desire/grace, cleans up rather than complicates complex historical/theological matters. It's great to embrace "God is Love," "the truth shall set you free" or "every knee shall bow" but in truth to the scholarly/philosophically minded Christianity is a pretty deep faith to those who take it seriously, imho, which is why these discussions are fun.


I guess. Calvinism to me is very depressing and dark. The word Gospel means good news. Calvinism says it is good news only for the elect. And horrible news for everyone else created by God.
Eternal conscious torment. Just because. Makes me sick.

One thing I really appreciate about you, Derm, is that the idea of souls perishing in hell and eventually in the eternal Lake of Fire makes you sick. I have come to learn much from this posture of yours and believe it is how we should view it.




I appreciate that. Respect your views also. Agree to disagree.

And Scripture says God hates to see the wicked punished.

And why it repels me when pastors preach how God, us, and all creation will be happy to see people going to ECT hell. Can't do it.
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Zobel
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Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

I'm not a universalist and I believe it has in fact been condemned by the Church, but God willing I hope that all are saved.

With that caveat this presumes that living like they would be advantageous. It sort of assumes there's a real value in sin, instead of death, and you're gaming the system to win now and later. But that's not what Christ says, or what the church teaches. Abundant life is now, in Christ… His yoke is light and we have joy, so we live how we love. You can't imagine that you're forgoing the good in life by following God.
dermdoc
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Zobel said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

I'm not a universalist and I believe it has in fact been condemned by the Church, but God willing I hope that all are saved.

With that caveat this presumes that living like they would be advantageous. It sort of assumes there's a real value in sin, instead of death, and you're gaming the system to win now and later. But that's not what Christ says, or what the church teaches. Abundant life is now, in Christ… His yoke is light and we have joy, so we live how we love. You can't imagine that you're forgoing the good in life by following God.


Completely agree. Life without Christ is death. And the most abundant life is abiding with Christ. But that is not what I was taught growing up. Basically the reason for Jesus was fire insurance from ECT hell.
Just believe all are ultimately saved. And assurance of salvation has interestingly made me hate sin worse than thinking I am "safe" and can do whatever I want.
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Howdy, it is me!
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Zobel said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

I'm not a universalist and I believe it has in fact been condemned by the Church, but God willing I hope that all are saved.

With that caveat this presumes that living like they would be advantageous. It sort of assumes there's a real value in sin, instead of death, and you're gaming the system to win now and later. But that's not what Christ says, or what the church teaches. Abundant life is now, in Christ… His yoke is light and we have joy, so we live how we love. You can't imagine that you're forgoing the good in life by following God.


So, for a universalist, it's all for the purpose of this life, now.

(To be clear, I agree this life has much importance. He came so we can have life now - John 10:10. I pray we all can say we had a true friend in Jesus.)
dermdoc
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Howdy, it is me! said:

Zobel said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

I'm not a universalist and I believe it has in fact been condemned by the Church, but God willing I hope that all are saved.

With that caveat this presumes that living like they would be advantageous. It sort of assumes there's a real value in sin, instead of death, and you're gaming the system to win now and later. But that's not what Christ says, or what the church teaches. Abundant life is now, in Christ… His yoke is light and we have joy, so we live how we love. You can't imagine that you're forgoing the good in life by following God.


So, for a universalist, it's all for the purpose of this life, now.

(To be clear, I agree this life has much importance. He came so we can have life now - John 10:10. I pray we all can say we had a true friend in Jesus.)


Not at all. I believe eternal life starts when you are born again. Jesus talked much more about the Kingdom of God. Here and now. And how to live this life. He talked very little about post mortem life. But we will have it as believers.
People have this mistaken notion them once someone believes everybody is ultimately reconciled with God then we are going to eat, drink, be merry and sin all we can. Because we are "good" with the Lord.
It is actually the exact opposite. I hate sin a lot more than when I believed in ECT hell. And I love God a lot more.
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dermdoc
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Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

Because the worldly life sucks. Life with Jesus is so much better,
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Howdy, it is me!
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dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

Zobel said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

I'm not a universalist and I believe it has in fact been condemned by the Church, but God willing I hope that all are saved.

With that caveat this presumes that living like they would be advantageous. It sort of assumes there's a real value in sin, instead of death, and you're gaming the system to win now and later. But that's not what Christ says, or what the church teaches. Abundant life is now, in Christ… His yoke is light and we have joy, so we live how we love. You can't imagine that you're forgoing the good in life by following God.


So, for a universalist, it's all for the purpose of this life, now.

(To be clear, I agree this life has much importance. He came so we can have life now - John 10:10. I pray we all can say we had a true friend in Jesus.)


Not at all. I believe eternal life starts when you are born again. Jesus talked much more about the Kingdom of God. Here and now. And how to live this life. He talked very little about post mortem life. But we will have it as believers.
People have this mistaken notion them once someone believes everybody is ultimately reconciled with God then we are going to eat, drink, be merry and sin all we can. Because we are "good" with the Lord.
It is actually the exact opposite. I hate sin a lot more than when I believed in ECT hell. And I love God a lot more.


So many of your phrases could be used for Calvinists. People have this mistaken notion that because Calvinists believe in Election, that there is no need to Evangelize. Or, that because we can't lose our salvation we can do whatever we want. Calvinists tend to love God all the more because they realize their intense hopelessness without Him.
dermdoc
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Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

Zobel said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

I'm not a universalist and I believe it has in fact been condemned by the Church, but God willing I hope that all are saved.

With that caveat this presumes that living like they would be advantageous. It sort of assumes there's a real value in sin, instead of death, and you're gaming the system to win now and later. But that's not what Christ says, or what the church teaches. Abundant life is now, in Christ… His yoke is light and we have joy, so we live how we love. You can't imagine that you're forgoing the good in life by following God.


So, for a universalist, it's all for the purpose of this life, now.

(To be clear, I agree this life has much importance. He came so we can have life now - John 10:10. I pray we all can say we had a true friend in Jesus.)


Not at all. I believe eternal life starts when you are born again. Jesus talked much more about the Kingdom of God. Here and now. And how to live this life. He talked very little about post mortem life. But we will have it as believers.
People have this mistaken notion them once someone believes everybody is ultimately reconciled with God then we are going to eat, drink, be merry and sin all we can. Because we are "good" with the Lord.
It is actually the exact opposite. I hate sin a lot more than when I believed in ECT hell. And I love God a lot more.


So many of your phrases could be used for Calvinists. People have this mistaken notion that because Calvinists believe in Election, that there is no need to Evangelize. Or, that because we can't lose our salvation we can do whatever we want. Calvinists tend to love God all the more because they realize their intense hopelessness without Him.

I agree. I am basically a Calvinist who believes at the end, God saves all. There is refining punishment but not retributive punishment, And it is not eternal. God makes all things new.
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Captain Pablo
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Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

Zobel said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

I'm not a universalist and I believe it has in fact been condemned by the Church, but God willing I hope that all are saved.

With that caveat this presumes that living like they would be advantageous. It sort of assumes there's a real value in sin, instead of death, and you're gaming the system to win now and later. But that's not what Christ says, or what the church teaches. Abundant life is now, in Christ… His yoke is light and we have joy, so we live how we love. You can't imagine that you're forgoing the good in life by following God.


So, for a universalist, it's all for the purpose of this life, now.

(To be clear, I agree this life has much importance. He came so we can have life now - John 10:10. I pray we all can say we had a true friend in Jesus.)


Not at all. I believe eternal life starts when you are born again. Jesus talked much more about the Kingdom of God. Here and now. And how to live this life. He talked very little about post mortem life. But we will have it as believers.
People have this mistaken notion them once someone believes everybody is ultimately reconciled with God then we are going to eat, drink, be merry and sin all we can. Because we are "good" with the Lord.
It is actually the exact opposite. I hate sin a lot more than when I believed in ECT hell. And I love God a lot more.


So many of your phrases could be used for Calvinists. People have this mistaken notion that because Calvinists believe in Election, that there is no need to Evangelize. Or, that because we can't lose our salvation we can do whatever we want. Calvinists tend to love God all the more because they realize their intense hopelessness without Him.


Imagine the surprise when those Calvinists who thought they were elect discover …


10andBOUNCE
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Captain Pablo said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

Zobel said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

I'm not a universalist and I believe it has in fact been condemned by the Church, but God willing I hope that all are saved.

With that caveat this presumes that living like they would be advantageous. It sort of assumes there's a real value in sin, instead of death, and you're gaming the system to win now and later. But that's not what Christ says, or what the church teaches. Abundant life is now, in Christ… His yoke is light and we have joy, so we live how we love. You can't imagine that you're forgoing the good in life by following God.


So, for a universalist, it's all for the purpose of this life, now.

(To be clear, I agree this life has much importance. He came so we can have life now - John 10:10. I pray we all can say we had a true friend in Jesus.)


Not at all. I believe eternal life starts when you are born again. Jesus talked much more about the Kingdom of God. Here and now. And how to live this life. He talked very little about post mortem life. But we will have it as believers.
People have this mistaken notion them once someone believes everybody is ultimately reconciled with God then we are going to eat, drink, be merry and sin all we can. Because we are "good" with the Lord.
It is actually the exact opposite. I hate sin a lot more than when I believed in ECT hell. And I love God a lot more.


So many of your phrases could be used for Calvinists. People have this mistaken notion that because Calvinists believe in Election, that there is no need to Evangelize. Or, that because we can't lose our salvation we can do whatever we want. Calvinists tend to love God all the more because they realize their intense hopelessness without Him.


Imagine the surprise when those Calvinists who thought they were elect discover …




This is true and will be the case unfortunately for some that belong to all tribes, tongues and nations
The Banned
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Captain Pablo said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

Zobel said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

I'm not a universalist and I believe it has in fact been condemned by the Church, but God willing I hope that all are saved.

With that caveat this presumes that living like they would be advantageous. It sort of assumes there's a real value in sin, instead of death, and you're gaming the system to win now and later. But that's not what Christ says, or what the church teaches. Abundant life is now, in Christ… His yoke is light and we have joy, so we live how we love. You can't imagine that you're forgoing the good in life by following God.


So, for a universalist, it's all for the purpose of this life, now.

(To be clear, I agree this life has much importance. He came so we can have life now - John 10:10. I pray we all can say we had a true friend in Jesus.)


Not at all. I believe eternal life starts when you are born again. Jesus talked much more about the Kingdom of God. Here and now. And how to live this life. He talked very little about post mortem life. But we will have it as believers.
People have this mistaken notion them once someone believes everybody is ultimately reconciled with God then we are going to eat, drink, be merry and sin all we can. Because we are "good" with the Lord.
It is actually the exact opposite. I hate sin a lot more than when I believed in ECT hell. And I love God a lot more.


So many of your phrases could be used for Calvinists. People have this mistaken notion that because Calvinists believe in Election, that there is no need to Evangelize. Or, that because we can't lose our salvation we can do whatever we want. Calvinists tend to love God all the more because they realize their intense hopelessness without Him.


Imagine the surprise when those Calvinists who thought they were elect discover …




One of my favorite parts of Calvinism. "assurance" of salvation while also acknowledging that there may be a significant number of "falsely assured" Christians. So not only has God predetermined X number of people for hell and refuses to offer a lifeline, He also tricks a certain % of them into thinking they were saved, maximizing the painful reality that they were doomed all along. At least the non-believer isn't surprised when they get to hell.
Captain Pablo
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

Captain Pablo said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

Zobel said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

I'm not a universalist and I believe it has in fact been condemned by the Church, but God willing I hope that all are saved.

With that caveat this presumes that living like they would be advantageous. It sort of assumes there's a real value in sin, instead of death, and you're gaming the system to win now and later. But that's not what Christ says, or what the church teaches. Abundant life is now, in Christ… His yoke is light and we have joy, so we live how we love. You can't imagine that you're forgoing the good in life by following God.


So, for a universalist, it's all for the purpose of this life, now.

(To be clear, I agree this life has much importance. He came so we can have life now - John 10:10. I pray we all can say we had a true friend in Jesus.)


Not at all. I believe eternal life starts when you are born again. Jesus talked much more about the Kingdom of God. Here and now. And how to live this life. He talked very little about post mortem life. But we will have it as believers.
People have this mistaken notion them once someone believes everybody is ultimately reconciled with God then we are going to eat, drink, be merry and sin all we can. Because we are "good" with the Lord.
It is actually the exact opposite. I hate sin a lot more than when I believed in ECT hell. And I love God a lot more.


So many of your phrases could be used for Calvinists. People have this mistaken notion that because Calvinists believe in Election, that there is no need to Evangelize. Or, that because we can't lose our salvation we can do whatever we want. Calvinists tend to love God all the more because they realize their intense hopelessness without Him.


Imagine the surprise when those Calvinists who thought they were elect discover …




This is true and will be the case unfortunately for some that belong to all tribes, tongues and nations


All that churchin' and prayin' for nothing

Bummer

Hope it works out for you
10andBOUNCE
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AG
I'm not sure what that even means
The Banned
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dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

If everyone is going to be saved in the end, why do we do anything we do as Christians? Why not live this life to the fullest from a worldly POV and then enjoy eternal life in the end anyway? What's the point?

Because the worldly life sucks. Life with Jesus is so much better,

In Universalism, "life with Jesus" is only done on the timeline is which God chooses to make you believe. You can't really "choose" an earthly life with Jesus if God doesn't choose to overwhelm your will prior to your death. You only submit when he makes you. So any "better" life is being withheld until the moment He chooses to give it to you.

You've solved the issue of eternal punishment, but you still have the issue of randomized temporal punishment for no other reason than God makes it happen. Hence the reason the "problem of evil" is the primary catalyst for people losing their faith.
nortex97
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AG
I think that's a bit of an over-simplification, but in general is correct, as to the corrective nature of God's punishment for those who are (as all are) fundamentally good but commit much sin/evil (which is an absence of good).

Origen is my preferred 'original' Christian universalist (I'm not as big on Clement). Long link which does a decent job describing his thoughts from remaining writings (I recommend the whole link, which starts more toward the beginning of his philosophy which links the great "I AM" statements from God/Christ to being/goodness vs. evil etc);
Quote:

The End as the So-Called Restoration
This topic naturally leads to Origen's view of the end of history. For him, since the substance of every rational creature is fundamentally good, and God's punishments are aimed at turning their corrupted wills back to the good, it is impossible that evil could exist forever. This belief wasn't a result of the influence of Greek philosophy, but followed from his 'orthodox' polemics against the 'gnostic' heretics. In fact, Plato himself believed that some sinners are "incurable" (e.g., Phaedo 113E2); Origen rejected this view on the Christian grounds that God is the Almighty Physician, so it is possible for him to cure any of his creatures, even the worst (De Princ III.6.5; cf. Contra Celsum VIII.72).

For Origen, the "restoration" (apokatastasis) of all rational beings is the goal to which all of history aims. In his commentary on John 1:1, with reference to the "beginning" in which the Logos "was," he says regarding the corresponding "end":
Quote:

I think the stopping point and goal [telos] is the so-called restoration, because no one is left as an enemy then, if indeed the statement is true, "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. And the last enemy to be destroyed is death." [1 Cor 15:2526] For at that time those who have come to God through the Logos who is "with him" [John 1:1] will have the contemplation of God as their only activity, that, having been accurately formed in the knowledge of the Father, they may all thus become a son, since now the Son alone has known the Father [Matt 11:27]. (Comm in John I.9193)

Later in his commentary, he states that the telos will be simultaneous with Christ's coming, citing 1 Cor 15:2324 (Comm in John XXXII.2730). The fact that he says that the end is the "so-called" restoration implies that he is relating something that has been previously taught.

One of his sources is clearly 1 Corinthians 15:2428, which actually refers to the subjection of God's enemies as the telos. This passage is Origen's primary Scriptural basis for his belief in the universal restoration, and he devotes a large portion of his On First Principles to exegeting this text (De Princ I.6; III.5.66.8). He thinks that the subjection of God's enemies refers to their salvation for two reasons. First, because it is explicitly said in Scripture that subjection to God is salvation (De PrincI.6.1; cf. Ps 62:1). Second, because this same subjection is applied to Christ. Contrary to the "heretics," who "deprecate using the term subjection in regard to the Son," the subjection of the Son can be nothing but "good and salutary," and includes the "perfect restoration of the entire creation" which will at that time have been incorporated into the body of Christ (De Princ III.5.7; cf. Eph 1:10).

Another source for Origen's belief in the universal restoration is likely Acts 3:21, which connects the "restoration of all things" to Christ's return. In fact, he references this passage to support his view that the "perfect telos" of the world will be the restoration (De Princ II.3.5; cf. Comm in Matt 17.19). Finally, a third source for his belief that the "telos is the so-called restoration" is likely his predecessor Clement of Alexandria, who also said that Paul "teaches that the telos is the restoration we hope for" (Stromata II.22). We shouldn't discount the influence of Clement, who was a clear universalist, on Origen, although we also shouldn't overemphasize this influence (it's unlikely that Origen actually studied under Clement, as has often been thought).

Origen's belief in universal restoration is not only based in Scripture, but also philosophy that is, Christian philosophy, not Greek philosophy. As noted above, his beliefs that evil is non-being and that God's punishment is restorative lead directly to his universalism. It is possible for a soul to become so fully integrated around goodness that its good will is "changed into nature"; this is precisely what happened with Christ's human soul (De Princ II.6.57). In fact, this is precisely why, after the restoration of all beings, there will be no more fall, and Christ will not need to be sacrificed a second time (Origen considers this thought to be absurd). All beings will have been made perfect in the love of Christ, and "love never fails" (Comm in RomV.10.1216).

A brilliant man, imho. This is all the exact opposite of eternal continuous torment hell.
dermdoc
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AG
nortex97 said:

I think that's a bit of an over-simplification, but in general is correct, as to the corrective nature of God's punishment for those who are (as all are) fundamentally good but commit much sin/evil (which is an absence of good).

Origen is my preferred 'original' Christian universalist (I'm not as big on Clement). Long link which does a decent job describing his thoughts from remaining writings (I recommend the whole link, which starts more toward the beginning of his philosophy which links the great "I AM" statements from God/Christ to being/goodness vs. evil etc);
Quote:

The End as the So-Called Restoration
This topic naturally leads to Origen's view of the end of history. For him, since the substance of every rational creature is fundamentally good, and God's punishments are aimed at turning their corrupted wills back to the good, it is impossible that evil could exist forever. This belief wasn't a result of the influence of Greek philosophy, but followed from his 'orthodox' polemics against the 'gnostic' heretics. In fact, Plato himself believed that some sinners are "incurable" (e.g., Phaedo 113E2); Origen rejected this view on the Christian grounds that God is the Almighty Physician, so it is possible for him to cure any of his creatures, even the worst (De Princ III.6.5; cf. Contra Celsum VIII.72).

For Origen, the "restoration" (apokatastasis) of all rational beings is the goal to which all of history aims. In his commentary on John 1:1, with reference to the "beginning" in which the Logos "was," he says regarding the corresponding "end":
Quote:

I think the stopping point and goal [telos] is the so-called restoration, because no one is left as an enemy then, if indeed the statement is true, "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. And the last enemy to be destroyed is death." [1 Cor 15:2526] For at that time those who have come to God through the Logos who is "with him" [John 1:1] will have the contemplation of God as their only activity, that, having been accurately formed in the knowledge of the Father, they may all thus become a son, since now the Son alone has known the Father [Matt 11:27]. (Comm in John I.9193)

Later in his commentary, he states that the telos will be simultaneous with Christ's coming, citing 1 Cor 15:2324 (Comm in John XXXII.2730). The fact that he says that the end is the "so-called" restoration implies that he is relating something that has been previously taught.

One of his sources is clearly 1 Corinthians 15:2428, which actually refers to the subjection of God's enemies as the telos. This passage is Origen's primary Scriptural basis for his belief in the universal restoration, and he devotes a large portion of his On First Principles to exegeting this text (De Princ I.6; III.5.66.8). He thinks that the subjection of God's enemies refers to their salvation for two reasons. First, because it is explicitly said in Scripture that subjection to God is salvation (De PrincI.6.1; cf. Ps 62:1). Second, because this same subjection is applied to Christ. Contrary to the "heretics," who "deprecate using the term subjection in regard to the Son," the subjection of the Son can be nothing but "good and salutary," and includes the "perfect restoration of the entire creation" which will at that time have been incorporated into the body of Christ (De Princ III.5.7; cf. Eph 1:10).

Another source for Origen's belief in the universal restoration is likely Acts 3:21, which connects the "restoration of all things" to Christ's return. In fact, he references this passage to support his view that the "perfect telos" of the world will be the restoration (De Princ II.3.5; cf. Comm in Matt 17.19). Finally, a third source for his belief that the "telos is the so-called restoration" is likely his predecessor Clement of Alexandria, who also said that Paul "teaches that the telos is the restoration we hope for" (Stromata II.22). We shouldn't discount the influence of Clement, who was a clear universalist, on Origen, although we also shouldn't overemphasize this influence (it's unlikely that Origen actually studied under Clement, as has often been thought).

Origen's belief in universal restoration is not only based in Scripture, but also philosophy that is, Christian philosophy, not Greek philosophy. As noted above, his beliefs that evil is non-being and that God's punishment is restorative lead directly to his universalism. It is possible for a soul to become so fully integrated around goodness that its good will is "changed into nature"; this is precisely what happened with Christ's human soul (De Princ II.6.57). In fact, this is precisely why, after the restoration of all beings, there will be no more fall, and Christ will not need to be sacrificed a second time (Origen considers this thought to be absurd). All beings will have been made perfect in the love of Christ, and "love never fails" (Comm in RomV.10.1216).

A brilliant man, imho. This is all the exact opposite of eternal continuous torment hell.

Agree with Origen. God is all good and will make all things new.
Shalom.
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The Banned
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Origen was not a dogmatic universalist. He would fall more into the camp of "hopeful" universalist,


Quote:

1. An end or consummation would seem to be an indication of the perfection and completion of things. And this reminds us here, that if there be any one imbued with a desire of reading and understanding subjects of such difficulty and importance, he ought to bring to the effort a perfect and instructed understanding, lest perhaps, if he has had no experience in questions of this kind, they may appear to him as vain and superfluous; or if his mind be full of preconceptions and prejudices on other points, he may judge these to be heretical and opposed to the faith of the Church, yielding in so doing not so much to the convictions of reason as to the dogmatism of prejudice. These subjects, indeed, are treated by us with great solicitude and caution, in the manner rather of an investigation and discussion, than in that of fixed and certain decision. For we have pointed out in the preceding pages those questions which must be set forth in clear dogmatic propositions, as I think has been done to the best of my ability when speaking of the Trinity. But on the present occasion our exercise is to be conducted, as we best may, in the style of a disputation rather than of strict definition.



He posited this view (not held to it dogmatically) because of his Platonic metaphysics, in which our pre-existing souls are destined to return to their original state. The Church later put an end to this hope for a post-mortem, universal repentance, as well as the pre-existence of our souls, because of the implications that it has on God's creation ex nihilo, the goodness of creation, etc.

We can be "hopeful" universalists in the sense that everyone chooses to trust in God prior to death, but evidence would show us this is unlikely.

nortex97
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AG
Yes he evolved and the RCC later denounced him but the RCC has said a lot of things I disagree with, which 'it' formerly agreed with in a doctrinal way (and reversed on others, such as the Filioque, or indulgences, or the respect for national sovereignty/borders, and various elements of the sacraments of the Eucharist, or divorce, etc). Just sharing a view, not an intent to get into a belittling argument etc. over.

It's still a reasoned, defensible, textually-based soteriology imho, and one I am frankly inclined toward more-so than many others (such as high Calvinism).
10andBOUNCE
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AG
dermdoc said:

nortex97 said:

I think that's a bit of an over-simplification, but in general is correct, as to the corrective nature of God's punishment for those who are (as all are) fundamentally good but commit much sin/evil (which is an absence of good).

Origen is my preferred 'original' Christian universalist (I'm not as big on Clement). Long link which does a decent job describing his thoughts from remaining writings (I recommend the whole link, which starts more toward the beginning of his philosophy which links the great "I AM" statements from God/Christ to being/goodness vs. evil etc);
Quote:

The End as the So-Called Restoration
This topic naturally leads to Origen's view of the end of history. For him, since the substance of every rational creature is fundamentally good, and God's punishments are aimed at turning their corrupted wills back to the good, it is impossible that evil could exist forever. This belief wasn't a result of the influence of Greek philosophy, but followed from his 'orthodox' polemics against the 'gnostic' heretics. In fact, Plato himself believed that some sinners are "incurable" (e.g., Phaedo 113E2); Origen rejected this view on the Christian grounds that God is the Almighty Physician, so it is possible for him to cure any of his creatures, even the worst (De Princ III.6.5; cf. Contra Celsum VIII.72).

For Origen, the "restoration" (apokatastasis) of all rational beings is the goal to which all of history aims. In his commentary on John 1:1, with reference to the "beginning" in which the Logos "was," he says regarding the corresponding "end":
Quote:

I think the stopping point and goal [telos] is the so-called restoration, because no one is left as an enemy then, if indeed the statement is true, "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. And the last enemy to be destroyed is death." [1 Cor 15:2526] For at that time those who have come to God through the Logos who is "with him" [John 1:1] will have the contemplation of God as their only activity, that, having been accurately formed in the knowledge of the Father, they may all thus become a son, since now the Son alone has known the Father [Matt 11:27]. (Comm in John I.9193)

Later in his commentary, he states that the telos will be simultaneous with Christ's coming, citing 1 Cor 15:2324 (Comm in John XXXII.2730). The fact that he says that the end is the "so-called" restoration implies that he is relating something that has been previously taught.

One of his sources is clearly 1 Corinthians 15:2428, which actually refers to the subjection of God's enemies as the telos. This passage is Origen's primary Scriptural basis for his belief in the universal restoration, and he devotes a large portion of his On First Principles to exegeting this text (De Princ I.6; III.5.66.8). He thinks that the subjection of God's enemies refers to their salvation for two reasons. First, because it is explicitly said in Scripture that subjection to God is salvation (De PrincI.6.1; cf. Ps 62:1). Second, because this same subjection is applied to Christ. Contrary to the "heretics," who "deprecate using the term subjection in regard to the Son," the subjection of the Son can be nothing but "good and salutary," and includes the "perfect restoration of the entire creation" which will at that time have been incorporated into the body of Christ (De Princ III.5.7; cf. Eph 1:10).

Another source for Origen's belief in the universal restoration is likely Acts 3:21, which connects the "restoration of all things" to Christ's return. In fact, he references this passage to support his view that the "perfect telos" of the world will be the restoration (De Princ II.3.5; cf. Comm in Matt 17.19). Finally, a third source for his belief that the "telos is the so-called restoration" is likely his predecessor Clement of Alexandria, who also said that Paul "teaches that the telos is the restoration we hope for" (Stromata II.22). We shouldn't discount the influence of Clement, who was a clear universalist, on Origen, although we also shouldn't overemphasize this influence (it's unlikely that Origen actually studied under Clement, as has often been thought).

Origen's belief in universal restoration is not only based in Scripture, but also philosophy that is, Christian philosophy, not Greek philosophy. As noted above, his beliefs that evil is non-being and that God's punishment is restorative lead directly to his universalism. It is possible for a soul to become so fully integrated around goodness that its good will is "changed into nature"; this is precisely what happened with Christ's human soul (De Princ II.6.57). In fact, this is precisely why, after the restoration of all beings, there will be no more fall, and Christ will not need to be sacrificed a second time (Origen considers this thought to be absurd). All beings will have been made perfect in the love of Christ, and "love never fails" (Comm in RomV.10.1216).

A brilliant man, imho. This is all the exact opposite of eternal continuous torment hell.

Agree with Origen. God is all good and will make all things new.
Shalom.

Derm this is random - was somehow directed to reading a bit about Robert Robinson this morning (author of "Come Thou Fount") and he seemed like someone you would align well with as you both share many of the same concerns.
dermdoc
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AG
Thanks for that. Very interesting story. I do not share his Unitarian beliefs and am a trinity guy.

If you have not discovered George MacDonald I strongly recommend him. He is a gentle David Bentley Hart. A much more eloquent and strong Rob Bell. He is my spirit animal.

And fwiw, I would have loved to see John MacArthur (RIP) or John Piper debate David Bentley Hart.
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AGC
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AG
nortex97 said:

Yes he evolved and the RCC later denounced him but the RCC has said a lot of things I disagree with, which 'it' formerly agreed with in a doctrinal way (and reversed on others, such as the Filioque, or indulgences, or the respect for national sovereignty/borders, and various elements of the sacraments of the Eucharist, or divorce, etc). Just sharing a view, not an intent to get into a belittling argument etc. over.

It's still a reasoned, defensible, textually-based soteriology imho, and one I am frankly inclined toward more-so than many others (such as high Calvinism).


If your argument is supported by a guy condemned at an ecumenical council (the fifth), it's probably worth re-thinking your doctrine. Origen isn't a saint in the east either, so there's no theological refuge in Roman rejection.
dermdoc
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AG
AGC said:

nortex97 said:

Yes he evolved and the RCC later denounced him but the RCC has said a lot of things I disagree with, which 'it' formerly agreed with in a doctrinal way (and reversed on others, such as the Filioque, or indulgences, or the respect for national sovereignty/borders, and various elements of the sacraments of the Eucharist, or divorce, etc). Just sharing a view, not an intent to get into a belittling argument etc. over.

It's still a reasoned, defensible, textually-based soteriology imho, and one I am frankly inclined toward more-so than many others (such as high Calvinism).


If your argument is supported by a guy condemned at an ecumenical council (the fifth), it's probably worth re-thinking your doctrine. Origen isn't a saint in the east either, so there's no theological refuge in Roman rejection.


From my reading, there was quite a bit of politics in the Origen condemnation. And it was primarily due his belief in pre existence of souls not his views on universal reconciliation.

Interestingly, Calvinism, specifically its theology on predestination, election, and total depravity, was deemed a heresy at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1692.
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AGC
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AG
dermdoc said:

AGC said:

nortex97 said:

Yes he evolved and the RCC later denounced him but the RCC has said a lot of things I disagree with, which 'it' formerly agreed with in a doctrinal way (and reversed on others, such as the Filioque, or indulgences, or the respect for national sovereignty/borders, and various elements of the sacraments of the Eucharist, or divorce, etc). Just sharing a view, not an intent to get into a belittling argument etc. over.

It's still a reasoned, defensible, textually-based soteriology imho, and one I am frankly inclined toward more-so than many others (such as high Calvinism).


If your argument is supported by a guy condemned at an ecumenical council (the fifth), it's probably worth re-thinking your doctrine. Origen isn't a saint in the east either, so there's no theological refuge in Roman rejection.


From my reading, there was quite a bit of politics in the Origen condemnation. And it was primarily due his belief in pre existence of souls not his views on universal reconciliation.

Interestingly, Calvinism, specifically its theology on predestination and election, was deemed a heresy at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1692.


He was controversial before the condemnation at the council.

The church fathers have diverse thoughts on many topics, and there's no need for a settled theology on things like atonement. I'd think it's better to hold this belief loosely than rely on Origen. Surely there are non-heretics you can quote if this is an orthodox doctrine.
dermdoc
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AG
Well I am a happy heretic as you know with my belief in ultimate reconciliation. So there is that.

BTHO Miami!
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