Matt_ag98 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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Matt_ag98 said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

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The EU (USA's largest trading partner plus many of its primary NATO allies) really cares because of the massive Ukrainian refugee flow and potential new security problems this has caused for them, and thus the US really cares because of those deep trade and military relationships.A lot of stuff is geopolitically interrelated here, which is why China, North Korea, Iran, etc have also been involved helping out the other side. Giving the middle finger to Europe has never been a practical option nor would be in the best economic or security interests of the USA.

Trump continuing to help with Ukraine was part of his leverage to get that recent advantageous new trade deal with the EU. Again, a lot of stuff is interconnected.

Feel free to forward to all Isolationist types who have tried to simplify this to merely 'Russia and Ukraine's problem'. No it is not.

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Well the EU can put it's money where it's mouth is then...oh but they won't...then try to guilt the US into sending more money again

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The EU has been putting their money where their mouth is for 3 years. You just keep ignoring reality.

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BS we have spent 122B all the way across the pond and the 27 member super rich old money EU has spent 121B...in their own damn hemisphere. They don't care enough

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"Old money EU" has about half our GDP.

Secolobo said:

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Where were all these concerned folks when Obama gave Putin crimea?

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Saying that he was a ****ing idiot and ***** because it would come back to bite the world in the ass. This may come as a shock, but many people don't shift to the position du joure of their chosen party and don't need their opinions force fed to them through blind adherence to rhetoric.

Logos Stick said:

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Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

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Russia's not a national security threat?

nortex97 said:

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Trump, who has settled 6 wars in 6 months to the unending dismay of war proponents, is working on this one next/again, but we will have to see if the green goblin allows it to end.

Quote:

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We did it there, and we did the Abraham Accords. The Abraham Accords were a big deal. But we've done it with a lot. I don't know, people say lots of things about wars, and there's never been anybody that settles more wars. I've settled six wars in six months. Think about it. These are major wars, these are wars where thousands of people are going to be absolutely killed. It's terrible."

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Yes, Zelensky really put all of that tripe on his X feed.

AP article. With team Autopen off the world stage, the one motivated to keep this war going at all costs is located in Kiev, not Moscow, clearly.

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Which side has been on a near constant offensive since 2023 and has intentionally launched massive attacks on almost exclusively civilian targets?

The Russians are launching regular drone salvo's of 400-700/night, and if the intent was to cause mass civilian casualties with those, then that would have been quite obvious. The Kiev regime regularly strikes civilians/residential buildings, so there's a moral equivalency in any case.

🤭🤭 pic.twitter.com/SszF2xULu5

— Hayley Smith (@Mrs_Gavin_Smith) August 9, 2025

If Russia comes out of this with Donetsk and Lugansk but not the other two annexed oblasts, I don’t see how you can construe that as anything but a pyrrhic Russian victory.

— Big Serge ☦️🇺🇸🇷🇺 (@witte_sergei) August 8, 2025

We'll just have to see what happens on Friday.

CrackerJackAg said:

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2040huck said:

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He could easily side with us and provide his country with anything they need. At this point, I say we give Ukraine anything they need to defeat this guy short of nukes.

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This statement is true aside from the actions of the United States and NATO in our entire history.

At the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia wanted to normalize relationships with the United States and wear a shirt that they would be able to

Boomers have hated Russia ever since they had to hide under their little desks

Russia has never done a single thing to us, and it's entire history in which treat them like the mortal enemy

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Wow, that's some pretty spectacular propaganda there. I'd say aiming a bunch of strategic nuclear weapons at us and constantly politically destabilizing or fomenting war amongst our allies or nations friendly to us, and engaging in global political rhetoric that included the stated goal of global communism (with Russia as the lead state) was rather hostile. We definitely had a two way hostile relationship due to our conflicting geopolitical goals. The Soviet Union did not just want to be left alone, or even to only Eurasia, in the long run.

Totally see this working out for Ukraine, especially since they are not invited to the table.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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Matt_ag98 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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Matt_ag98 said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

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The EU (USA's largest trading partner plus many of its primary NATO allies) really cares because of the massive Ukrainian refugee flow and potential new security problems this has caused for them, and thus the US really cares because of those deep trade and military relationships.A lot of stuff is geopolitically interrelated here, which is why China, North Korea, Iran, etc have also been involved helping out the other side. Giving the middle finger to Europe has never been a practical option nor would be in the best economic or security interests of the USA.

Trump continuing to help with Ukraine was part of his leverage to get that recent advantageous new trade deal with the EU. Again, a lot of stuff is interconnected.

Feel free to forward to all Isolationist types who have tried to simplify this to merely 'Russia and Ukraine's problem'. No it is not.

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Well the EU can put it's money where it's mouth is then...oh but they won't...then try to guilt the US into sending more money again

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The EU has been putting their money where their mouth is for 3 years. You just keep ignoring reality.

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BS we have spent 122B all the way across the pond and the 27 member super rich old money EU has spent 121B...in their own damn hemisphere. They don't care enough

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"Old money EU" has about half our GDP.

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Once again, how is that America's problem that most Euros are lazy and work a 20 hour(or less) work week and can't "produce" enough to have a higher GDP?...the war is still in their backyard, maybe cut back on the handouts in your country and do something about European security? Greece should be a model of caution for the Euros...not a model of European Excellence

I think Trump is going to try to establish an in person relationship with Putin and show by making the effort in person that this is importantly to him. I'm not sure what it will achieve as Putin is pretty much completely possessed by a Russia first ideology that sees Russia as the rightful dominating leader of Eurasia and that Russia has a destiny to seize it all, directly or by proxy, but by bit, over time. Putin believes he is carrying this out, and it is his calling and destiny. If he relents, it will only a s strategic pause, unfortunately.

Also, that same ideology seem America as a long term mortal enemy and threat to Russian global dominance and influence, so they will continue as they are able, to manipulate our politics and economics. While operating under leadership guided by this ideology, they will always be opposed to us.

Muy said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

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Russia's not a national security threat?

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It's tough to take them seriously as a security threat when 'they've only been able to take 20 percent of Ukraine next door to them in 3+ years.'

Their economy is geared largely around (a) oil/gas and (b) weapons production, which is a bit of a unique 'thing' but they don't really compete with us economically in anything that matters (other than the uranium business the Clintons sold them).

Putin has survived 5 US admins, the man plays people like a quarter, do not see him bending a knee to anyone.

MouthBQ98 said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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2040huck said:

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He could easily side with us and provide his country with anything they need. At this point, I say we give Ukraine anything they need to defeat this guy short of nukes.

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This statement is true aside from the actions of the United States and NATO in our entire history.

At the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia wanted to normalize relationships with the United States and wear a shirt that they would be able to

Boomers have hated Russia ever since they had to hide under their little desks

Russia has never done a single thing to us, and it's entire history in which treat them like the mortal enemy

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Wow, that's some pretty spectacular propaganda there. I'd say aiming a bunch of strategic nuclear weapons at us and constantly politically destabilizing or fomenting war amongst our allies or nations friendly to us, and engaging in global political rhetoric that included the stated goal of global communism (with Russia as the lead state) was rather hostile. We definitely had a two way hostile relationship due to our conflicting geopolitical goals. The Soviet Union did not just want to be left alone, or even to only Eurasia, in the long run.

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Sounds like us.

I never said it wasn't two way. It's one point I was making.

Soviet Union was evil. It's gone.

While the Soviet Union is gone much of its culture and stain still exists in present day Russia. And truth be told, much of what made the Soviet Union bad wasn't just communism but broken Russian culture to begin with.

Teslag said:

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While the Soviet Union is gone much of its culture and stain still exists in present day Russia. And truth be told, much of what made the Soviet Union bad wasn't just communism but broken Russian culture to begin with.

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Ok, I'm sure you are an expert. I'll leave it with you

Teslag said:

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While the Soviet Union is gone much of its culture and stain still exists in present day Russia. And truth be told, much of what made the Soviet Union bad wasn't just communism but broken Russian culture to begin with.

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History has shown that Russians have a unique desire among Europeans to be ruled. They simply lack the individualism and ambition of most other populations in that part of the world. It's a collectivist, "for the motherland" mindset and they tend to just wander aimlessly off the cliff while following whichever authoritarian figure is currently in power.

Russia had better be offering something other than a (easily breakable) ceasefire for these two oblasts. Ceding that, with nothing concrete in exchange from Russia guarantees that Russia moves up, fortifies positions, and then renews the push. You can't trade something permanent for something temporary. It's foolhardy, especially knowing who you're dealing with.

If Russia were to officially concede Ukraine's right to maintain their military as they see fit, freedom to establish military alliances, or even Russian withdrawal from all other oblasts in exchange then I'd say that they were serious. But it's not. It's an offer ripe for exploitation to Putin's benefit in a long Russian tradition of such.

I honestly don't see the point of diplomacy when one or both participants have no intention or even a recent example of honoring their agreements. Maybe I'm feeling more cynical than normal, but I just don't see anything changing until Putin is dead or otherwise out of power. If it even changes after he's gone

How do you negotiate with someone who is untrustworthy. As long as Putin is in charge, nothing will change. He may "agree" to something but will always look to gain an advantage after the fact.

2040huck said:

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He could easily side with us and provide his country with anything they need. At this point, I say we give Ukraine anything they need to defeat this guy short of nukes.

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Didn't know random thought hot takes deserved their own thread. Yet here we are

Logos Stick said:

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Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

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That's not true. Ukraine has incredible rare earth metals that the US will need to plunder in order to remain the world #1.

AgPrognosticator said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

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That's not true. Ukraine has incredible rare earth metals that the US will need to plunder in order to remain the world #1.

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You might want to fact check yourself before you start throwing around words like "incredible" when it comes to rare earth metals in Ukraine. Don't get me wrong they have some but not like is being sold in the media. The estimated amounts are based on outdated Russian surveys that a majority of experts agree are unreliable and that the majority of minerals in Ukraine are lithium, titanium, and uranium, but unproven estimates and financial viability is really in question.

Yeah the rare earth chatter was really just a show to say after the war, they'd negotiate if American companies wanted to go digging around to find the stuff.

Quote:

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"If you want critical minerals, Ukraine ain't the place to look for them," declares Jack Lifton, executive chairman of the Critical Minerals Institute. "It's a fantasy. There's no point to any of this. There's some other agenda going on here. I can't believe that anybody in Washington actually believes that it makes sense to get rare earths in Ukraine."

Even without a war to contend with, it would take at least 15 years to build a mine to begin extracting rare-earth ore on a large scale, Lifton notes. And according to the terms of the draft critical materials deal, private companies would have to invest huge sums, likely a billion dollars or more, to develop rare-earths mines in Ukraine. It's a possibility that Lifton, an IEEE member and former metals trader, dismisses as absurd. He notes that a multinational mining company, Rio Tinto Group, has spent close to US $3 billion on potential mine sites in Arizona and Alaska and still does not have the necessary licenses and permits from the U.S. Government to begin building a mine in either place.

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I think it was more or less just trying to make them an actual economic ally and enable Trump to say he got a good deal, which is why it was so damn funny Zelensky tried to renegotiate/not-sign the deal several times, including at the White House.

Sims said:

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Sanction their oil all you want, it will just raise the price and they'll make even more money of their oil sales than they do now.

The right answer is to say screw putin and turn every valve in the permian to full send and bring down the price of energy substantially. Russia can't handle that.

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They aren't making near as much on that oil as you think. The Chicoms are getting a severe discount on that stuff as is India and any other under the table recipient. Their entire economy is being propped up by the war machines right now. Pull that leg off the table and they instability will rise, which is why I believe Putin will fight any peace deal at all cost.

samurai_science said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

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Feel free to forward to all Isolationist types who have tried to simplify this to merely 'Russia and Ukraine's problem'. No it is not.

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No, it actually is. It's easy to sell weapons to one side or the other and let Europe deal with it. We are broke

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If we were to acknowledge debt spending, the whole world is broke.