2040huck said:

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He could easily side with us and provide his country with anything they need. At this point, I say we give Ukraine anything they need to defeat this guy short of nukes.

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This statement is true aside from the actions of the United States and NATO in our entire history.

At the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia wanted to normalize relationships with the United States and wear a shirt that they would be able to

Boomers have hated Russia ever since they had to hide under their little desks

Russia has never done a single thing to us, and it's entire history in which treat them like the mortal enemy

GAC06 said:

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Queso1 said:

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We lost the war in Ukraine. Russia will end up with the areas taken. We said no annexation and there will be annexation. We lost.

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We aren't in a war in Ukraine.

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lol! Sorry. I forgot that our poor weren't fighting…it was the Ukrainian poor. Either way, we paid for it.

safety guy said:

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No way Ukraine wins that fight if Russia wants to go all in.

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1 million causalities

I'd say they're all in

Apollo79 said:

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Teslag said:

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Queso1 said:

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We lost the war in Ukraine. Russia will end up with the areas taken. We said no annexation and there will be annexation. We lost.

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Except Russia didn't want just what they have. They wanted all of Ukraine, regime change, and to do it in days or weeks with minimal losses.

They completely failed to meet their objectives and now have a decimated military.

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Russia got Crimea about a 1/3 of UKE how is that not anything but success for Russia?

Quote:

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They completely failed to meet their objectives and now have a decimated military.

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Really how they still bombing the **** out of UKE and not in jeopardy of losing any of their gains?

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Russia got Crimea basically unopposed in 2014. In the current war Russia has basically been frozen along current lines for 3 years.

CrackerJackAg said:

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2040huck said:

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He could easily side with us and provide his country with anything they need. At this point, I say we give Ukraine anything they need to defeat this guy short of nukes.

---

This statement is true aside from the actions of the United States and NATO in our entire history.

At the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia wanted to normalize relationships with the United States and wear a shirt that they would be able to

Boomers have hated Russia ever since they had to hide under their little desks

Russia has never done a single thing to us, and it's entire history in which treat them like the mortal enemy

---

Russia has done a lot to us, up to and including attacking Americans in Syria.

Queso1 said:

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GAC06 said:

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Queso1 said:

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We lost the war in Ukraine. Russia will end up with the areas taken. We said no annexation and there will be annexation. We lost.

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We aren't in a war in Ukraine.

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lol! Sorry. I forgot that our poor weren't fighting…it was the Ukrainian poor. Either way, we paid for it.

---

We've paid a lot. But the initial Russian invasion was repelled by the Ukrainians largely without our aid. The resolve of the Ukrainian soldiers cannot be discounted. They don't want to be Russians. And that's the main reason they still aren't.

jamey said:

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safety guy said:

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No way Ukraine wins that fight if Russia wants to go all in.

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1 million causalities

I'd say they're all in

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But they can keep going and outlast Ukraine as long as the people and military are on board. That is the key. It's going to take an upheaval from the people and military to overthrow or eliminate Putin.

The fact Kiev is still standing is a win for Ukraine. Russia was exposed and will think twice before pulling this again. Ukraine gives up some land but gets a "commitment" for US investment and European investment in exchange for not joining NATO.

Dan Scott said:

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The fact Kiev is still standing is a win for Ukraine. Russia was exposed and will think twice before pulling this again. Ukraine gives up some land but gets a "commitment" for US investment and European investment in exchange for not joining NATO.

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Anything short of a nato like garuntee from the US and Europe, and Russia will be right back in no time

safety guy said:

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jamey said:

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safety guy said:

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No way Ukraine wins that fight if Russia wants to go all in.

---

1 million causalities

I'd say they're all in

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But they can keep going and outlast Ukraine as long as the people and military are on board. That is the key. It's going to take an upheaval from the people and military to overthrow or eliminate Putin.

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Goalposts

Can they keep going? Yes. Have they devoted everything they possibly can and gone all in? Also yes. They cannot escalate and commit anymore than they already have.

Pumpkinhead said:

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Feel free to forward to all Isolationist types who have tried to simplify this to merely 'Russia and Ukraine's problem'. No it is not.

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this. president "i will end the war on day one" tried to step in with his isolationist bull**** and the result has been a doubling of russian attacks on ukrainian territory on his watch.

reality smacked him in the face until he was forced to come back around to the position that was obviously correct all along.

Teslag said:

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safety guy said:

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No way Ukraine wins that fight if Russia wants to go all in.

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lol. Russia has gone all in. What else do you think they aren't using?

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Novichok

CrackerJackAg said:

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2040huck said:

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He could easily side with us and provide his country with anything they need. At this point, I say we give Ukraine anything they need to defeat this guy short of nukes.

---

This statement is true aside from the actions of the United States and NATO in our entire history.

At the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia wanted to normalize relationships with the United States and wear a shirt that they would be able to

Boomers have hated Russia ever since they had to hide under their little desks

Russia has never done a single thing to us, and it's entire history in which treat them like the mortal enemy

---

Thinking a dictator who has stayed in power for 20 years by arresting or murdering any opposition or dissenters and has launched multiple invasions of neighbors to annex land wants to normalize relations with Western democracy is an absolutely imbecilic take. Russia has not wanted to play nice or normalize relationships since Yeltsin left office. Putin is and always has been a product and reincarnation of Soviet hardliners, and he's had the same attitude towards the West.

If Russia wanted to play nice and normalize relations, then they should have no problem with former Soviet controlled countries shifting towards European influence. Russia itself could do so and enjoy all the benefits of a peaceful continent and more economic trading partners. But they never have. Russia wants to maintain an exploitative hold and influence on its formerly subjugated neighbors, and they'll do it through bribery and corruption or outright force.

They've never stopped trying to subvert Western governments, and they've been actively engaged in a sabotage campaign against the Europeans. For all of the talk of normalization, their pipelines and gas sales to Europe were always an economic trap to put Europe under their thumb. That's something that's been the last 10-15 years in the making.

They've successfully played both sides of our political aisle to sow divisiveness, so both sides can legitimately try to claim the other is in bed with them. Republicans can point to the Russiagate hoax and make of Hillary's connections, but Democrats can also point to the DNC email leak that helped Trump win in 2016. They've never stopped their active measures campaign, which has been an ideological poison pill since the 60's.

Only Islam rivals poor innocent Russia for being able to **** on the world and then successfully play the victim to the gullible.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

---

2040huck said:

---

He could easily side with us and provide his country with anything they need. At this point, I say we give Ukraine anything they need to defeat this guy short of nukes.

---

This statement is true aside from the actions of the United States and NATO in our entire history.

At the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia wanted to normalize relationships with the United States and wear a shirt that they would be able to

Boomers have hated Russia ever since they had to hide under their little desks

Russia has never done a single thing to us, and it's entire history in which treat them like the mortal enemy

---

Thinking a dictator who has stayed in power for 20 years by arresting or murdering any opposition or dissenters and has launched multiple invasions of neighbors to annex land wants to normalize relations with Western democracy is an absolutely imbecilic take. Russia has not wanted to play nice or normalize relationships since Yeltsin left office. Putin is and always has been a product and reincarnation of Soviet hardliners, and he's had the same attitude towards the West.

If Russia wanted to play nice and normalize relations, then they should have no problem with former Soviet controlled countries shifting towards European influence. Russia itself could do so and enjoy all the benefits of a peaceful continent and more economic trading partners. But they never have. Russia wants to maintain an exploitative hold and influence on its formerly subjugated neighbors, and they'll do it through bribery and corruption or outright force.

They've never stopped trying to subvert Western governments, and they've been actively engaged in a sabotage campaign against the Europeans. For all of the talk of normalization, their pipelines and gas sales to Europe were always an economic trap to put Europe under their thumb. That's something that's been the last 10-15 years in the making.

They've successfully played both sides of our political aisle to sow divisiveness, so both sides can legitimately try to claim the other is in bed with them. Republicans can point to the Russiagate hoax and make of Hillary's connections, but Democrats can also point to the DNC email leak that helped Trump win in 2016. They've never stopped their active measures campaign, which has been an ideological poison pill since the 60's.

Only Islam rivals poor innocent Russia for being able to **** on the world and then successfully play the victim to the gullible.

---

They ****ed over Yeltsin. Putin, and almost no one is Russia has considered the west a good partner since.

Yes, he's still a dictator.

All of these things can be true if you are blinded by your emotions.

Putin has been in charge for a long time

he generally knows what he's doing

Yeltsin ****ed over Yeltsin with sky high inflationary policies and privatization policies that kick-started the Russian oligarchy. The West didn't do anything to him other than bomb his Yugoslav allies, the Serbs.

As for the rest, excellent rebuttal. I'll take all of your well thought out and supported points to heart.

Pumpkinhead said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

---

The EU (USA's largest trading partner plus many of its primary NATO allies) really cares because of the massive Ukrainian refugee flow and potential new security problems this has caused for them, and thus the US really cares because of those deep trade and military relationships.A lot of stuff is geopolitically interrelated here, which is why China, North Korea, Iran, etc have also been involved helping out the other side. Giving the middle finger to Europe has never been a practical option nor would be in the best economic or security interests of the USA.

Trump continuing to help with Ukraine was part of his leverage to get that recent advantageous new trade deal with the EU. Again, a lot of stuff is interconnected.

Feel free to forward to all Isolationist types who have tried to simplify this to merely 'Russia and Ukraine's problem'. No it is not.

---

It only took us sabotaging our EU allies nord stream pipeline for them to finally get off the tit of Russian energy- jacking up energy costs for everyday Europeans in the process. Globalism is a farce and a modern day plague and it needs to be destroyed.

Putin does not acknowledge Ukraine he sees Russians that have gone astray, this meeting will only disappoint.

Apollo79 said:

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Teslag said:

---

Queso1 said:

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We lost the war in Ukraine. Russia will end up with the areas taken. We said no annexation and there will be annexation. We lost.

---

Except Russia didn't want just what they have. They wanted all of Ukraine, regime change, and to do it in days or weeks with minimal losses.

They completely failed to meet their objectives and now have a decimated military.

---

Russia got Crimea about a 1/3 of UKE how is that not anything but success for Russia?

Quote:

---

They completely failed to meet their objectives and now have a decimated military.

---

Really how they still bombing the **** out of UKE and not in jeopardy of losing any of their gains?

---

There is no way this current outcome can be defined as a victory for Russia. They don't want Ukraine specifically. They want the Carpathian Mountains as a natural barrier. To get there they need all of Ukraine along with pretty much all of Poland and Romania. Right now if we ceded all of Ukraine in exchange for it ending there they would have to accept those terms. They don't look capable of defeating a powerful Polish military and they surely aren't capable of taking any territory that is part of NATO.

Again, if this stalls here it's an abject failure for Russia. There's not another way to spin it.

Trump, who has settled 6 wars in 6 months to the unending dismay of war proponents, is working on this one next/again, but we will have to see if the green goblin allows it to end.

Quote:

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We did it there, and we did the Abraham Accords. The Abraham Accords were a big deal. But we've done it with a lot. I don't know, people say lots of things about wars, and there's never been anybody that settles more wars. I've settled six wars in six months. Think about it. These are major wars, these are wars where thousands of people are going to be absolutely killed. It's terrible."

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Yes, Zelensky really put all of that tripe on his X feed.

AP article. With team Autopen off the world stage, the one motivated to keep this war going at all costs is located in Kiev, not Moscow, clearly. I think there would be massive uproar/protests if Zelensky sinks a brokered end (and Trump would likely just entirely cut off Kiev). It would be nice to just let Trump do his thing and see if it works out. Putin might in fact be an idiot, but he wouldn't have agreed to come to Alaska absent some intent to reach an agreement, imho.

Where were all these concerned folks when Obama gave Putin crimea?

I don't see any significant change to the current situation until putin is dead or somehow out of power otherwise. What the next russian dictator will/won't do is totally TBD speculation.

That's my (perhaps) overly simplified view of this war anyways...

It is just the height of naivety to believe that the fighting over Ukrainian land, which has been going on for centuries, will forever end if can somehow get the fighting stopped now.

2040huck said:

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He could easily side with us and provide his country with anything they need. At this point, I say we give Ukraine anything they need to defeat this guy short of nukes.

---

He's clearly a stubborn guy. Trump, or any leaders, need to be very careful appeasing this nut. Potential to be very Chamberlain-esque.

Zelenskyy doesn't want the war to end because that number one cuts off his cash machine and number two they'll have an election and he'll be out of there. He's not nearest popular over there as everybody is meant to believe.

Russia has not been successful at warfare since 1945, and only a minority winner in that engagement. They absolutely will not lose in Ukraine, but they may be there forever with no ability to win.
Conscripted Gen Z kids in Russia may be even worse warriors than they are in the US. We still have some very aggressive volunteers in both our rural and urban populations.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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Yeltsin ****ed over Yeltsin with sky high inflationary policies and privatization policies that kick-started the Russian oligarchy. The West didn't do anything to him other than bomb his Yugoslav allies, the Serbs.

As for the rest, excellent rebuttal. I'll take all of your well thought out and supported points to heart.

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You seem to very emotional about this. I hope everyone in Russia/Ukraine you care about is ok.

Pumpkinhead said:

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Logos Stick said:

---

Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

---

The EU (USA's largest trading partner plus many of its primary NATO allies) really cares because of the massive Ukrainian refugee flow and potential new security problems this has caused for them, and thus the US really cares because of those deep trade and military relationships.A lot of stuff is geopolitically interrelated here, which is why China, North Korea, Iran, etc have also been involved helping out the other side. Giving the middle finger to Europe has never been a practical option nor would be in the best economic or security interests of the USA.

Trump continuing to help with Ukraine was part of his leverage to get that recent advantageous new trade deal with the EU. Again, a lot of stuff is interconnected.

Feel free to forward to all Isolationist types who have tried to simplify this to merely 'Russia and Ukraine's problem'. No it is not.

---

Well the EU can put it's money where it's mouth is then...oh but they won't...then try to guilt the US into sending more money again

samurai_science said:

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At this point I say we sell weapons to Ukraine at market value and let them fight it out. We make a trade agreement with whomever wins.

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In!

Matt_ag98 said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

---

Logos Stick said:

---

Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

---

The EU (USA's largest trading partner plus many of its primary NATO allies) really cares because of the massive Ukrainian refugee flow and potential new security problems this has caused for them, and thus the US really cares because of those deep trade and military relationships.A lot of stuff is geopolitically interrelated here, which is why China, North Korea, Iran, etc have also been involved helping out the other side. Giving the middle finger to Europe has never been a practical option nor would be in the best economic or security interests of the USA.

Trump continuing to help with Ukraine was part of his leverage to get that recent advantageous new trade deal with the EU. Again, a lot of stuff is interconnected.

Feel free to forward to all Isolationist types who have tried to simplify this to merely 'Russia and Ukraine's problem'. No it is not.

---

Well the EU can put it's money where it's mouth is then...oh but they won't...then try to guilt the US into sending more money again

---

The EU has been putting their money where their mouth is for 3 years. You just keep ignoring reality.

Secolobo said:

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Where were all these concerned folks when Obama gave Putin crimea?

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you wont get an answer from the UKE fan boys on this one ever....Also, this is the big loss for UKE which they will never get back....


Think a lot of people don't understand if not for USA and EU Russia would have ended the war in a about a year. Russia is essentially three different countries.

Dirty_Mike&the_boys said:

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Zelenskyy doesn't want the war to end because that number one cuts off his cash machine and number two they'll have an election and he'll be out of there. He's not nearest popular over there as everybody is meant to believe.

---

You're right. The most popular guy that would replace zelensky is Zalzhuny who hates the Russians more and would still keep the war going.

Apollo79 said:

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Secolobo said:

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Where were all these concerned folks when Obama gave Putin crimea?

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you wont get an answer from the UKE fan boys on this one ever....Also, this is the big loss for UKE which they will never get back....


Think a lot of people don't understand if not for USA and EU Russia would have ended the war in a about a year. Russia is essentially three different countries.

---

This is laughable. Russia invaded in February of 2022. By summer of 2022, and largely without US aid the Ukrainians has already stopped the initial invasion and pushed Russia out of the northern front altogether. Russia never set out to end this war "in about a year". The goal was weeks or days. It didn't happen. And it didn't happen because of the resolve of the Ukrainians and the ineptitude of the Russian military. Our aid has been able to keep the lines stable for almost 3 years now as Russia remains far weaker than they were in 2022.

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

Matt_ag98 said:

---

Pumpkinhead said:

---

Logos Stick said:

---

Why do you care what happens to Ukraine? It's not a national security interest.

---

The EU (USA's largest trading partner plus many of its primary NATO allies) really cares because of the massive Ukrainian refugee flow and potential new security problems this has caused for them, and thus the US really cares because of those deep trade and military relationships.A lot of stuff is geopolitically interrelated here, which is why China, North Korea, Iran, etc have also been involved helping out the other side. Giving the middle finger to Europe has never been a practical option nor would be in the best economic or security interests of the USA.

Trump continuing to help with Ukraine was part of his leverage to get that recent advantageous new trade deal with the EU. Again, a lot of stuff is interconnected.

Feel free to forward to all Isolationist types who have tried to simplify this to merely 'Russia and Ukraine's problem'. No it is not.

---

Well the EU can put it's money where it's mouth is then...oh but they won't...then try to guilt the US into sending more money again

---

The EU has been putting their money where their mouth is for 3 years. You just keep ignoring reality.

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BS we have spent 122B all the way across the pond and the 27 member super rich old money EU has spent 121B...in their own damn hemisphere. They don't care enough

CrackerJackAg said:

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2040huck said:

---

He could easily side with us and provide his country with anything they need. At this point, I say we give Ukraine anything they need to defeat this guy short of nukes.

---

This statement is true aside from the actions of the United States and NATO in our entire history.

At the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia wanted to normalize relationships with the United States and wear a shirt that they would be able to

Boomers have hated Russia ever since they had to hide under their little desks

Russia has never done a single thing to us, and it's entire history in which treat them like the mortal enemy

---

Quite possibly the most uninformed post of the year. The 'little desks' comments was particularly childish and moronic..