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Legal ramifications against Camp Mystic

132,549 Views | 894 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by Gunny456
ttha_aggie_09
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Quote:

Isn't that last part kinda like saying: the drunk driver that turned up the exit ramp and caused a wrong way accident, killing a family of five in a minivan, didn't want it to happen and they are a good person and it could of happened to any of us that had 18 beers. So no hate from the relatives of the five and no consequences for the driver? Drinking 18 beers maybe not the same as a weather event … but having a rudimentary flood safety plan among many other things given the camps location and history equates to the poor decision of drinking 18 beers. I think the surviving family has a right to their anger and there should be consequences for the drunk driver.

Check me on the logic of my comparison.

As someone that has zero dog in this fight, I think it is a terrible comparison. I can't even comprehend how you can use the example of people being killed by a drunk driver and then people pleading for leniency of the drunk driver is remotely close to what happened or what is being portrayed by commenters on this thread here...

Maybe if someone knew that a driver was drunk and willingly proceeded to let people under their care hop in the car or bus with them and they were killed, that would be more appropriate...
TexasRebel
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No. It'd be more like a train derailing and caroming off of drunk driver to ultimately hit a school bus.
Benny the Jet Rodriguez
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Mr. Frodo said:

mpl35 said:

oldarmyag95 said:

he lost a family member genius

We all know that I think. No need to be an ass. It sucks. So did the Eastlunds - no matter their culpability in this. They might not be fit to run the camp but it isn't like they wanted this.


Isn't that last part kinda like saying: the drunk driver that turned up the exit ramp and caused a wrong way accident, killing a family of five in a minivan, didn't want it to happen and they are a good person and it could of happened to any of us that had 18 beers. So no hate from the relatives of the five and no consequences for the driver? Drinking 18 beers maybe not the same as a weather event … but having a rudimentary flood safety plan among many other things given the camps location and history equates to the poor decision of drinking 18 beers. I think the surviving family has a right to their anger and there should be consequences for the drunk driver.

Check me on the logic of my comparison.

As mentioned earlier if you haven't watch the summary of the nights events at the hearing I don't think you are fully informed. I've seen several links to it posted. I posted a tweet from Dan Patrick that had the link..
.. way back in this thread. I recall it being about an hour.

Also as mentioned I like reading the discussion here and appreciate all perspectives. Let the moderators police.

I just checked your logic, and it is awful and ridiculous.
KerrAg76
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TexasRebel said:

No. It'd be more like a train derailing and caroming off of drunk driver to ultimately hit a school bus.

Correct. People say "given the history"….exactly what history are you referring to?? Sure , there has been equally high water but no one never has seen the magnitude we're talking about here. I'm miles downstream and the river rose 22' in 1hr. Do the math 4.4"/minute, and I guarantee it wasn't a smooth rise like that! In 10 minutes time the water is over the heads of many of these campers, and it's a raging river not a swimming pool. There are trees 10' circumference ,100' from the river to this day bent over 30-40* angles. The water hit like a freight train.

As I said way earlier in this thread I am not excusing Mystic poor judgement and planning. That was a travesty.
Gunny456
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The river has done that before. It's not the first time and won't be the last….and can probably be even worse. In 1978 it was worse downstream and even more catastrophic. I was born and raised on the river and was there. I watched centuries old cypress trees completely uprooted and washed downstream.
People should have learned from those events imo.
BS on the "1000" year talk. They said that same thing in 1978. We sure know now the river has the capability to do what it did….thing is, in it's thousands of year history of the Guadalupe River valley formation, it did this before, and will do it again. If you're going to build stuff and have people in harms way you best have a good plan when it happens again….cause someday it will.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
KerrAg76
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My understanding of 1978 was a stalled system raining for 4 days, ~51" of rain, and the majority occurred over 72 hours. Last year occurred basically overnight. I'm not debating the facts, just stating this was not any kind of ordinary flood…it was here and gone basically overnight.
mpl35
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Benny the Jet Rodriguez said:

Mr. Frodo said:

mpl35 said:

oldarmyag95 said:

he lost a family member genius

We all know that I think. No need to be an ass. It sucks. So did the Eastlunds - no matter their culpability in this. They might not be fit to run the camp but it isn't like they wanted this.


Isn't that last part kinda like saying: the drunk driver that turned up the exit ramp and caused a wrong way accident, killing a family of five in a minivan, didn't want it to happen and they are a good person and it could of happened to any of us that had 18 beers. So no hate from the relatives of the five and no consequences for the driver? Drinking 18 beers maybe not the same as a weather event … but having a rudimentary flood safety plan among many other things given the camps location and history equates to the poor decision of drinking 18 beers. I think the surviving family has a right to their anger and there should be consequences for the drunk driver.

Check me on the logic of my comparison.

As mentioned earlier if you haven't watch the summary of the nights events at the hearing I don't think you are fully informed. I've seen several links to it posted. I posted a tweet from Dan Patrick that had the link..
.. way back in this thread. I recall it being about an hour.

Also as mentioned I like reading the discussion here and appreciate all perspectives. Let the moderators police.

I just checked your logic, and it is awful and ridiculous.


Yep. Terrible analogy and there is zero "logic" involved.
Mr. Frodo
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I'm not calling the Eastlands or Mystic drunkards or saying the whole thing can be summed up like a drunk driver causing a wreck ... the point I was trying to make is that giving the camp/eastlands quarter because they did not intend for any of this to happen, as in the post I responded to, is like, to me, giving a drunk driver quarter because they did not intend to cause a wreck.

Intent is not relevant in either case/scenario ... actions or lack of actions are what matters.
TexasRebel
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They didn't accidentally cause the flood.
It's not like they recklessly broke a dam.

The analogy is awful.
mpl35
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Mr. Frodo said:

Let the moderators police.


Didn't suggest otherwise. I specifically just pointed out to one poster that I felt he was beating a dead horse at this point. I didn't call for any policing. Just addressed the OP.

Dermdoc and I are fine. We may not agree but that happens. I think we each understand where the other is coming from. Now I'm back to not posting in this thread and will just check for updates.
Mr. Frodo
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Didn't say they caused a flood or broke a dam.

I just believe it's totally ok to think there should be consequences for a shoddy disaster plan.

It seems like some think this was all an act of god and nothing could have been done.

I disagree with that sentiment.
Gunny456
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In 1978 19" rain fell on the Cypress Creek water shed in less than 12 hours. It was a stalled tropical depression at that point.….thats what caused the fast rise. It then rained more the next day and brought the river up again. At our place at Rebecca Creek it rose 31' in 45 minutes…in two hours it was up 51'. At our place it was very similar in effect as this event. It got almost that high the next night again.
Fact remains people should know the river can get that high and have a plan.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
txags92
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I think the problem is that there are a bunch of contradictory and conflicting things that are all true simultaneously:

1. The Eastlands are in their hearts good people who loved the kids who came to Camp Mystic.
2. The Eastlands were also flawed people who had neither the knowledge of flood hazards nor the preparedness of a good emergency plan that they should have had for a camp their size that had been around as long as they have.
3. The Eastlands didn't take some of the simple actions that could have resulted in saving all of the lives that night (using the loudspeaker system, summoning staff from other locations to help evacuate cabins).
4. Dick Eastland, his son, and Glenn acted heroically in trying to save all of the campers they could. Whatever else you think about his actions leading up to that night, Dick died as a hero trying to save little girls from the floodwaters.
5. The flood that came was something that nobody along the river was ready for or expected when they went to bed that night. The water rose faster and higher than any flood before it in that area. There were certainly bigger floods downstream, but they rose to those levels over the course of days, not minutes.
6. Knowing the cabins were above the 100 year floodplain should not have made them qualified for sheltering in place in the case of flooding. It was a flawed plan from the beginning to assume the kids would be safe there.
7. The Eastlands have not handled the family, the media, or the requests from thousands of other families well in navigating whether, when, or how to reopen the camp.
8. For people whose lives revolved around the camp, who lost the acknowledged driving force behind running the camp, father, and husband, and who are simultaneously despised by some, while joined in grief by others, the Eastlands were not equipped to navigate the public relations aspects of what has come since the flood. It doesn't make them suddenly bad people. They are just good people way over their heads who are probably getting very contradictory advice from different groups (lawyers telling them to admit or say nothing of consequence to families that are suing them, other families pleading with them to reopen, and everything in between).

It is up to the rest of us to register all of that information and decide what it means to us. My personal take is that the Eastlands should not run a camp ever again. Yes, it is a 1 strike you are out thing, but some of their failures are too egregious, even if they undoubtedly have learned very harsh lessons from their mistakes, to ever trust them to operate such a large enterprise safely in the future.

On the other hand, I recoil a bit from wanting them to be personally ruined financially or otherwise. I fall back to that first thing on the list. They were good people who loved the kids that camped with them and made an indelible mark on thousands of lives. One very bad mistake, however careless it was or horrifying the result, doesn't change that fact. It changes what I want to see or not see from them in the future, but it doesn't change who they were on July 3rd.

I want to see change in the way camps prepare for disasters and emergencies. I want to see the lives that were lost remembered in a positive and uplifting way that glorifies their short time on the planet. But I also want the kids who made lifelong friends at Mystic to still have that chance in the future. Seeing the property sold off to the Basses or some other rich investor instead of being a camp just feels sad to me. I don't want the Eastlands to profit from that in the future, but I stop short of feeling like they should be destroyed personally or financially. In the end, it was truly a once in a lifetime flood and their errors and flaws were not willful neglect or deliberate malfeasance that put the lives of kids at risk, but unintentional acts based on ignorance of the true risks.

I am sure I will be called an apologist or Eastland fan or whatever. I have no dog in the fight, and I struggle with anger at how things went down there. There were so many chances to have done things differently that would have saved all of the lives. But I keep going back to them being good people who were in over their head, being led by a control freak who was not evil, just ignorant of things that he needed to know more about.
DannyDuberstein
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I'm sure they loved the kids. I'm also sure they had a shamefully inadequate emergency plan, and not just for floods. There was a tragedy brewing at some point.
ttha_aggie_09
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Your analogy would be like if the owners intentionally blew up a dam that killed people and folks on here were still defending their actions.

That couldn't be any further from the truth… are they negligent (partially/fully), yes. Did they cause a flood that dumped an unprecedented amount of rain in an area in a very short time that killed almost a hundred people? No.
txags92
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DannyDuberstein said:

I'm sure they loved the kids. I'm also sure they had a shamefully inadequate emergency plan, and not just for floods. There was a tragedy brewing at some point.

Agreed. I think their actions after the flood and the actions of the nursing board point to inadequacies elsewhere in their system that are still present today and make them unqualified to run a camp in the future.
DannyDuberstein
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Agree. And based on their description, Dick was the one that made all the decisions. So basically what's left to run a camp are folks that just did what they were told and aren't qualified to run anything.
txags92
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DannyDuberstein said:

Agree. And based on their description, Dick was the one that made all the decisions. So basically what's left to run a camp are folks that just did what they were told and aren't qualified to run anything.

I think their lack of outreach to the families of the deceased and tone deaf messaging about wanting to reopen is suggestive of a real lack of direction in the people who are left. They relied on Dick for everything and their responses now that he is gone have been pretty unfocused and lacking in many ways. As you say, they shouldn't be running a camp in that condition.
dermdoc
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txags92 said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Agree. And based on their description, Dick was the one that made all the decisions. So basically what's left to run a camp are folks that just did what they were told and aren't qualified to run anything.

I think their lack of outreach to the families of the deceased and tone deaf messaging about wanting to reopen is suggestive of a real lack of direction in the people who are left. They relied on Dick for everything and their responses now that he is gone have been pretty unfocused and lacking in many ways. As you say, they shouldn't be running a camp in that condition.

As poor of planners as the Eastlands appear to be, I doubt they had planned well financially. They had to re open due to lack of cash flow and huge lawyer fees.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
FM 949
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txags92 said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Agree. And based on their description, Dick was the one that made all the decisions. So basically what's left to run a camp are folks that just did what they were told and aren't qualified to run anything.

I think their lack of outreach to the families of the deceased and tone deaf messaging about wanting to reopen is suggestive of a real lack of direction in the people who are left. They relied on Dick for everything and their responses now that he is gone have been pretty unfocused and lacking in many ways. As you say, they shouldn't be running a camp in that condition.


Their outreach to people suing them?
FM 949
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dermdoc said:

txags92 said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Agree. And based on their description, Dick was the one that made all the decisions. So basically what's left to run a camp are folks that just did what they were told and aren't qualified to run anything.

I think their lack of outreach to the families of the deceased and tone deaf messaging about wanting to reopen is suggestive of a real lack of direction in the people who are left. They relied on Dick for everything and their responses now that he is gone have been pretty unfocused and lacking in many ways. As you say, they shouldn't be running a camp in that condition.

As poor of planners as the Eastlands appear to be, I doubt they had planned well financially. They had to re open due to lack of cash flow and huge lawyer fees.


You're better than this kind of statement, Derm.
dermdoc
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I firmly believe that is why they wanted to re open. It was not meant to be disparaging. Only thing that makes sense. These are good people that are poor planners.
And yeah, I am better than that if it was meant to disparage them. It actually is a reasonable way to explain how they responded about re opening
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FM 949
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I like to think they wanted to reopen because they understood what an impact and important role Mystic played in a significant number of girls lives. But you are entitled to your opinion as am I.
txags92
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FM 949 said:

txags92 said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Agree. And based on their description, Dick was the one that made all the decisions. So basically what's left to run a camp are folks that just did what they were told and aren't qualified to run anything.

I think their lack of outreach to the families of the deceased and tone deaf messaging about wanting to reopen is suggestive of a real lack of direction in the people who are left. They relied on Dick for everything and their responses now that he is gone have been pretty unfocused and lacking in many ways. As you say, they shouldn't be running a camp in that condition.


Their outreach to people suing them?

There is a line they could have walked between expressing condolences and taking blame for what happened. By accounts from the Heaven's 27 parents even before the lawsuits, there was no communication at all. Their lawyers should have immediately worked with a public relations specialist to work out a way to reach out and communicate to show a human side to things. Just my opinion, but I think it could have been handled better.
txags92
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FM 949 said:

I like to think they wanted to reopen because they understood what an impact and important role Mystic played in a significant number of girls lives. But you are entitled to your opinion as am I.

Both sides can be true. They were almost certainly under a lot of perhaps indirect pressure to reopen from families reaching out and asking about it and a desire to return to the comfort of what they knew, which was caring for kids. And the legal teams necessary to defend against multiple lawsuits also can't be cheap, so the partial reopening may have been seen as necessary to fund their defense.
raidernarizona
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How do you define "abandoned"?!
You shouldn't believe everything you read or hear in the media!

How does the State of Texas not have any culpability? Everyone is sh*tting on the EAP of Mystic. I agree it was lacking, but how many times had DSHS audited their counselor manuals? Easier to just blame the Eastlands.
BrazosDog02
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FM 949 said:

I like to think they wanted to reopen because they understood what an impact and important role Mystic played in a significant number of girls lives. But you are entitled to your opinion as am I.

This.

It's well documented in media and other sources that over 850 families signed up for camp to be open this year.

The Eastland's have absolutely no cash flow problems. This is a large and well protected business that has a lot of backing from lots of families with very deep pockets. As much as some want it to fail, it most likely won't. It will open again, probably under the same ownership or with them closely involved. I THINK I read that they generate an annual revenue of $20,000,000+ between camp with the girls and other off season revenue streams. That might not be true, but that's what stuck with me when I was digging around.
TexasRebel
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Taking the blame that water fell from the sky at an unprecedented rate?
txags92
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TexasRebel said:

Taking the blame that water fell from the sky at an unprecedented rate?


If you were taking care of your neighbors house and a huge flood came and you were unable to save their dog and cat from drowning in the house. Would you feel bad about it? Would you apologize to them or at least share condolences for the loss of their beloved family pets? I would.

Now imagine you were being paid and trusted to take care of their kid instead and 27 of their kids died in a flood while in your care. Would you feel bad? Would you think it at least appropriate to reach out and express your thoughts and prayers for their loss? I would.
TexasRebel
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In the day and age of social media and twisted words?

No.

Especially if the lawyers I'm paying told me not to say a thing.

That doesn't mean it's not tearing me apart inside, just that I'm not foolish enough to let others tear me apart outside, too.
Marvin_Zindler
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dermdoc said:

I firmly believe that is why they wanted to re open. It was not meant to be disparaging. Only thing that makes sense. These are good people that are poor planners.
And yeah, I am better than that if it was meant to disparage them. It actually is a reasonable way to explain how they responded about re opening


"Good people that are poor planners" should never operate a summer camp. That may be the most succinct statement of the last year.
BrazosDog02
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txags92 said:

TexasRebel said:

Taking the blame that water fell from the sky at an unprecedented rate?


If you were taking care of your neighbors house and a huge flood came and you were unable to save their dog and cat from drowning in the house. Would you feel bad about it? Would you apologize to them or at least share condolences for the loss of their beloved family pets? I would.

Now imagine you were being paid and trusted to take care of their kid instead and 27 of their kids died in a flood while in your care. Would you feel bad? Would you think it at least appropriate to reach out and express your thoughts and prayers for their loss? I would.


I would as well but….and this is a "yes, but"……they had a family member attorney on staff. I've been instructed by Mya attorney that with incidences with my business and even fender benders….i don't say **** to the other guy. No "I'm sorry", no "wish that didn't happen"…nothing. I don't chit chat, I don't answer the persons questions. I show them my policy and insurance information and keep my mouth shut. The only person I speak to is the officer for a police report if so warranted.

All of that is because of the potential of litigation at the time. Even if I am sorry, I don't say anything. So….maybe….they were instructed the same immediately. We all knew the parents were going to sue them once things calmed down…and that's exactly what happened. So maybe mystic wanted to say something….or maybe they are dicks. I don't know.
dermdoc
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I want to explain what I was saying as in no way did I mean to disparage Mystic when I talked about cash flow. I have owned my own business for 36 years. We have been blessed financially and have accumulated money. But it is hard to get to sometimes. That is why cash flow is so important. You can have millions put aside and still be cash poor. Ask anyone who owns their own business.
Actually, I was giving a rational reason for Mystic's what seems like an insenstive, over the top decision of trying to re open the camp. I also agree that the demand to re open by other campers is a legitimate reason also. Please forgive me if I appeared to be condemning them. I was actually trying to be conciliatory.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Senator Blutarski
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With the amount of scrutiny they are under, Mystic would have been the safest camp in the country this summer.
Gunny456
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Unless the Guadalupe came on a bad rise again.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
 
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