Just in the 1970s 17 pitchers threw at least 100 complete games, some well over 150. That was before travel ball and its effect took hold.

The White Sox entered the 2023 season 101 games over .500 as a franchise (9,492,9,391)

Through yesterday, they are currently 35 games under .500 as a franchise (9,608-9,643) - having gone 116-252 in the their last 2-1/4 seasons.

The Original Houston 1836 said:

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The White Sox entered the 2023 season 101 games over .500 as a franchise (9,492,9,391)

Through yesterday, they are currently 35 games under .500 as a franchise (9,608-9,643) - having gone 116-252 in the their last 2-1/4 seasons.

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That is PEAK terrible.


Go Cubs Go!

Any idea what speed they were throwing back then?

I just saw something on a social media feed about him!

Very valid point - I agree

Sea Speed said:

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Any idea what speed they were throwing back then?

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No idea. The earliest I could find about attempts to measure the speed of a baseball was 1946. At that time, Bob Feller's fastball was measured at 98 mph.

Sea Speed said:

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Any idea what speed they were throwing back then?

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From everything I've read, there were guys even back in the 20s and 30s who could hit low to mid 90s. Walter Johnson was clocked in the 90s. Over the years, you had occasional guys like Bob Feller or Lefty Grove who get around a hundred. I feel like facing someone like Walter Johnson must have been crazy. He could hit up into the 90s, and it was in the dead ball era where the ball would be covered with dirt and stuff, making it harder to see. Also, the balls would get warped, giving them different movement.

A lot of people crap on the old timers because they didn't have guys throwing in the hundreds, but they ignore a lot of other differences. For example, spit balls were also legal until 1920. Also, hitters tend to get used to whatever speed most pitchers throw. When everyone is throwing 95, and a guy comes in at a hundred, it's devastating. But when you've got dozens of guys hitting a hundred, the batters adjust, and it's no longer as effective.

rbtexan said:

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I'm new to the thread, so maybe this has already been posted, but one of my favorite "wow" stats is this one:

In 1932, Hall Of Famer Joe Sewell set the modern era record for fewest strikeouts in a season by a batter. In 502 ABs, he struck out 3 times. That's right, 3 times. The most strikeouts he had in a season in his entire 14 year career was 20 in 1922. Starting with his first full season in the majors (1921), his season strikeout totals were as follows:
17
20
12
13
4
6
7
9
4
3
8
3
4

In 7132 career ABs, Sewell only struck out a total of 114 times.

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I wonder if, for example, the year he K'd 13 times, he thought, "damn, I have to cut down on my strikeouts."

Whether it was steroids or a juiced ball or a little bit of both, 1998 saw seven of the top 75 all-time single-season RBI performances occur, and if you pare it down to achievements since World War II, 7 of the top 28 - so a full 25%.

The culprits?

Sammy Soa - 158 - career high
Juan Gonzalez - 157 - career high
Albert Belle - 152 - career high
Mark McGwire - 147 - career high
Ken Griffey Jr. - 146 - career high
Manny Ramirez - 145 - not his career high (165, 1999)
Vinny Castilla - 144 - career high

Cliff Lee pitched for 13 seasons but didn't have his first 200 K seasons until years 10-12.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/leecl02.shtml

that list includes five mega-roiders

and a Coors Field rockstar

I would credit the 'roids

Vinny Castilla played in 1,854 career games

566 of them at Coors Field or Mile High Stadium

so 31% of his career games were in Denver

he posted 1,105 career RBI

454 of those RBI came at Coors Field or Mile High

so 41% of his career RBI were in Denver

Was Belle embroiled in the steroids scandals? I always had it in my head he was outside the fray

Looking at Dave Parker's career. How did he make it into the HOF? He had 3 or 4 really good seasons and then a lot of just a guy.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/parkeda01.shtml

AgRyan04 said:

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Looking at Dave Parker's career. How did he make it into the HOF? He had 3 or 4 really good seasons and then a lot of just a guy.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/parkeda01.shtml

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Cocaine > Steroids

AgRyan04 said:

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Looking at Dave Parker's career. How did he make it into the HOF? He had 3 or 4 really good seasons and then a lot of just a guy.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/parkeda01.shtml

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1 MVP
4 other top 5 MVP finishes
Four Gold Gloves
Defensive giant
FInished 11th for MVP with the A's in 89 at age 38.
Made the All-Star team at age 39.
Destroyed the Orioles in the '79 World Series.

Some of those highlights even feel like a stretch

Just feels like there are a bunch of other guys with better resumes not in

AgRyan04 said:

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Some of those highlights even feel like a stretch

Just feels like there are a bunch of other guys with better resumes not in

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Lay'em out and let's debate them.

These would be the guys I would have in ahead of him, in no particular order (and most of these guys I wouldn't have in)....

Freddy Lynn
Dale Murphy
Dustin Pedroia
Jeff Kent
Steve Garvey
Carlos Beltran
Lance Berkman
Andruw Jones
Carlos Delgado
Kenny Lofton
Don Mattingly

A few guys that are, in my mind, probably on par with would be:
Ryan Howard
Jim Edmonds
Bobby Abreu
Kirk Gibson
George Foster

I think where I struggle with Cobra is that he played a really long time but still never got to the milestone counting numbers. It's one thing for an Eddie Murray or Craig Biggio to play a long time in decline but they still reached the magic numbers.

perhaps not quite as much as the other guys on that list

Belle had a very complicated career

in the mid-to-late 90's, he was putting up better numbers than Frank Thomas and Ken Griffey jr

but few if any considered him a better hitter than those two

Good call, I forgot Belle

Parker had a remarkable 5-year stretch (1975-1979) of greatness where he was considered a superstar / best player in the game

a true 5-tool player -- highlighted by 66 outfield assists during those 5 seasons

then came the downfall, but he rebounded in the mid-80's with Cincinnati and had another 3 or 4 very good seasons to boost his career numbers

AgRyan04 said:

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These would be the guys I would have in ahead of him, in no particular order (and most of these guys I wouldn't have in)....

Freddy Lynn
Dale Murphy
Dustin Pedroia
Jeff Kent
Steve Garvey
Carlos Beltran
Lance Berkman
Andruw Jones
Carlos Delgado
Kenny Lofton
Don Mattingly

A few guys that are, in my mind, probably on par with would be:
Ryan Howard
Jim Edmonds
Bobby Abreu
Kirk Gibson
George Foster

I think where I struggle with Cobra is that he played a really long time but still never got to the milestone counting numbers. It's one thing for an Eddie Murray or Craig Biggio to play a long time in decline but they still reached the magic numbers.

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Very well though-out list. I'm not going to address anyone but the ones I can talk about without looking up.

Fred Lynn remains in my distant memory the most exciting player I ever saw play live. We randomly went to an Angels game where he robbed somebody of a home and had a triple that looked like a single but he just never stopped running.

I think he and Mattingly are immediately crossed out because injuries robbed them of prolonged greatness. Anyone who saw Lynn play 75-80 or Mattingly play 83-89 would have thought they were anything less than first ballot guys.

Garvey should be in but got designated as a scumbag and that was that. I also feel like he was sort of perpetually in Pete Rose's shadow as the 2nd best NL hitter in terms of consistency, much as Murphy was in Schmidt's shadow.

Murphy was damaged by being really terrible and continuing to play to try to get to 400 home runs and not being able to get there. I think the same thing happened to Fred Mcgriff trying to get to 500 home runs and not getting there.

So maybe what's really hurting a lot of these guys is that they peaked really early and then got hurt and were "just a guy" or they had a huge drop off and hung around as a shell of their former selves and that hurt them in the ballot box.

Parker had a career resurgence in Oakland when he was the veteran leader on a team with a lot of A-holes (mostly Ricky and Canseco) and that probably did a lot of credit for him with the media.
Top 10 RBI seasons (97 & 92) when you are 38 and 39 years old is pretty strong.

also worth mentioning...

Willie Stargell hit behind Parker in the Pirates' lineup

and for a few years Al Oliver -- an excellent hitter -- did too

Big Dave had lots of protection

W said:

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also worth mentioning...

Willie Stargell hit behind Parker in the Pirates' lineup

and for a few years Al Oliver -- an excellent hitter -- did too

Big Dave had lots of protection

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An Al Oliver's son was a not very good WR for A&M.

Parker and Harold Baines shouldn't be in the HOF in my opinion. I have a friend who was a teammate of Baines and said he's the nicest guy ever but couldn't believe he made it. They have similar stats but not HOF. I guess they're HOF guys because they're in. What I mean is the HOF isn't what it once was.