The Jewish people, including the descendants of the patriarch Jacob (aka Israel), as well as those who have chosen to join the nation by accepting the 613 commandments of the Torah.

BonfireNerd04 said:

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The Jewish people, including the descendants of the patriarch Jacob (aka Israel), as well as those who have chosen to join the nation by accepting the 613 commandments of the Torah.

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Agree. And all Israel will be saved. I am humbled that because of Jesus I can enter into the family of God, the Jews are the chosen people. And I am favor of Israel support. Unwaveringly.

Taking this from Jimmy Akin on the Catholic position according to scripture and explored in the Catechism, and directly quoting below. Thought it could be of some value:

"…the Church acknowledges that God does still have plans for the Jews as a unique people (Catechism of the Catholic Church 674). Paul clearly indicates this in his writings, especially in Romans 911, where he indicates God continues to fulfill his promises about the Jewish people by preserving a remnant of Jewish believers in Christ (11:15). This indicates a special place for Israel, for no other people has a promise that there will always be a believing remnant. God also has future plans for the Jewish people: One day the Jewish people as a nation will return to Christ, and this will be one of the signs of the Second Coming and the resurrection of the dead (11:12, 15)."

"…the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the "new Israel" (cf. CCC 877). This too is indicated in Paul's writings: In Romans 9:6 he says that "not all who are of Israel are Israel." This indicates the existence of two Israels. One"all who are of Israel"indicates the ethnic people, not all of whom believe in Jesus. The other Israel, the context reveals, does not include those who have rejected the Messiah. This new Israel, founded by Messiah, exists in spiritual continuity with the Old Testament saints and so counts as a "spiritual Israel." It includes Gentiles who believe in the Messiah and so through baptism are spiritually circumcised (Col. 2:1112) and are reckoned as spiritual Jews (Rom. 2:2629)."

Does all Israel being saved mean salvation? This seems to imply two separate Gospels. One means of salvations via ethnic supremacy and another for gentiles via Faith?

Or am I misunderstanding?

TeddyAg0422 said:

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What's your definition of "Israel" here?

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All of the Jewish people. Fire away.

And salvation is not achieved. It is God given by grace.

TeddyAg0422 said:

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That's an interesting perspective. I'm intrigued and would like to ask some follow up if you don't mind.

1. I'm interested in what your backing is, whether that be scripture or something else.

2. Why would we not assume that Christians today are the continuation of the Jews of the Old Testament rather than contemporary Judaism? After all, the Father gave us the Son, continuing a tradition that was being prophesied. It feels like modern-day Judaism could be considered a Christian heresy.

This isn't something I've thought about much and I don't have any firm opinion, so I don't mean to be argumentative in any way at all.

Edit: just saw your follow up edit. Jesus says in John 18:37 "You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice." So this seems to imply that those that don't listen to him/follow him are separate from the truth

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Thanks for the kind reply. It is Scriptural. Paul was a Jew. When he talked about Israel it is pretty hard to think he meant anything other than the Jewish people.

Israel in the Bible refers to a covenant between God and man, not a Rothschild-backed ethno-supremacist state that targets babies lol. That's why something feels off when you try to believe it's that latter, which is actually and obviously (to anyone with any level of spiritual discernment) controlled by the synagogue of Satan

Oh good, the antisemites are feeling bold.

There is a lot of to unpack here. Got to back way way up.

There are three tiers of nations in the OT in the era of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.
-Israel
-Other Abrahamic people groups descendant from Abraham (Like the Edomites descendant from Esau)
-The table of nations that describe the rest of the known world and are pagan. These are gentiles.

Israel was given the torah. The other abrahamic groups were not, but they were expected to not worship pagan gods and to worship YHWH. The oldest artifacts we have of YHWH's inscription is from edomites who worshiped God. To become an israelite you had to do the following:

-Be circumcised or be the wife or daughter of a circumcised male.
-Participate in the passover meal yearly.

Common derail point: This means that israelites are not a special ethnicity on their own based upon genetic differences, but reflections of marriage into the nation of Israel from outside. Israelites looked like the surrounding people groups because they came from them. Any 'jewish' ethnic genotypes that have arisen over time are because of inter faith marriages. But Israelites were not distinct initially. Based upon names in the bible, we know that Israel had at least one black egyptian high priest, (Phinaes, called the dark skinned one) and that Caleb was ethnically Canaanite. These are not possible under modern jewish distinctions of what genotypes make up jews as an ethnicity. They would be denied being called jewish ethnically even though they were full Israelites.

The Israelites were the last group to enter into Canaan and act as God's judgement. That is why you see God say do not take an inch of the land of the Edomites for they are your brothers and this land was given to them for driving out the giant clans in their lands.

Another common derail point: The book of Joshua declares that all the land gifted to Abraham and his descendants has been fulfilled. This is very important. It shows A) God presents a gift, humanity still has to take it and they have the autonomy to take it. (looking at you calvinists). This follows that B) Any unclaimed gifts of land from God as part of the covenant are not hanging chads. The israelites just did not fully take the gift and this period is now over. C) The whole covenant gift of land is the physical sign to seal the covenant that the messiah will come from Israel. It is the down payment on the messiah.

The twelve tribes of Israel split into two kingdoms, the 10 northern tribes were carried off by Assyria into the surrounding lands. The southern kingdom was exiled into Persia and then returned to rebuild the second temple.

The second temple does not have the presence of God. But it does have more devout people who are trying to uphold the torah. This is different than the era of the first temple. This brings in the messiah.

The messiah is a torah observant Israelite from Judah. Through using the Israel as the root, all of mankind can be grafted in. The 10 lost tribes of Israel are reconstituted through every man being able to be grafted in. Paul is basically the first person to catch on to this. Christians are not to become fully jewish torah observers because the torah is still in effect and christians cannot become jews except through marriage, circumcision and passover participation. And that the messianic age allows for Christians to be grafted in and live under the torah as foreigners. This is the counsel of jersualem. Christians are to follow the torah requirements of foreigners at the very least. No eating blood. No worshiping pagan gods, no participating in pagan sacrificial foods, no sexual immorality, no strangling animals as a means to kill them.

Jews who do not accept christ quickly demand that jews that do stop attending their synagogues and go found other houses of worship.

Fast forward 1900 years. The modern nation of Israel has no ties or prophecies left to the physical land or nation of Israel. They are LARPing under the name of Israel. The Scofield bible did an absolute number on evangelicals getting those purposefully confused. Modern evangelical devotion to Israel relies on weak understanding of church history and history of jews and christians post Jesus, and no church authority to correct this error.

It will die with boomers.

Sapper Redux said:

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Oh good, the antisemites are feeling bold.

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Hey man, everyone above my post is just spouting off low level evangelical talking points with one catholic talking about modern jewish people coming to Christ. Not exactly anti-semitiism. Dermdoc holds modern jews in higher regard than his own standing as a Christian.

You gotta wait next time til I show up before bemoaning anti-semitism. I'll go get Zobel as well.

Wow. This is a fantastic post. This has been enlightening and I appreciate your time and thoughts.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Wow. This is a fantastic post. This has been enlightening and I appreciate your time and thoughts.

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If you really want to learn about who Israel is and who the early church is, listen to this podcast. I recommend starting one episode before this with 'every stick of wood in the old testament' as its all about Jesus being the messiah from the OT perspective. But discussions of exactly who is Israel is this episode.

https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/i_will_make_a_distinction/

From the stick of wood episode to Hasmoneans episode is OT/early church/ modern christianity 101 refresher. Its about 14 hours long but its absolutely incredible.

The church

dermdoc said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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There is a lot of to unpack here. Got to back way way up.

There are three tiers of nations in the OT in the era of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.
-Israel
-Other Abrahamic people groups descendant from Abraham (Like the Edomites descendant from Esau)
-The table of nations that describe the rest of the known world and are pagan.

Israel was given the torah. The other abrahamic groups were not, but they were expected to not worship pagan gods and to worship YHWH. The oldest artifacts we have of YHWH's inscription is from edomites who worshiped God. To become an israelite you had to do the following:

-Be circumcised or be the wife or daughter of a circumcised male.
-Participate in the passover meal yearly.

Common derail point: This means that israelites are not a special ethnicity on their own based upon genetic differences, but reflections of marriage into the nation of Israel from outside. Israelites looked like the surrounding people groups because they came from them. Any 'jewish' ethnic genotypes that have arisen over time are because of inter faith marriages. But Israelites were not distinct initially. Based upon names in the bible, we know that Israel had at least one black egyptian high priest, (Phinaes, called the dark skinned one) and that Caleb was ethnically Canaanite. These are not possible under modern jewish distinctions of what genotypes make up jews as an ethnicity. They would be denied being called jewish ethnically even though they were full Israelites.

The Israelites were the last group to enter into Canaan and act as God's judgement. That is why you see God say do not take an inch of the land of the Edomites for they are your brothers and this land was given to them for driving out the giant clans in their lands.

Another common derail point: The book of Joshua declares that all the land gifted to Abraham and his descendants has been fulfilled. This is very important. It shows A) God presents a gift, humanity still has to take it and they have the autonomy to take it. (looking at you calvinists). This follows that B) Any unclaimed gifts of land from God as part of the covenant are not hanging chads. The israelites just did not fully take the gift and this period is now over. C) The whole covenant gift of land is the physical sign to seal the covenant that the messiah will come from Israel. It is the down payment on the messiah.

The twelve tribes of Israel split into two kingdoms, the 10 northern tribes were carried off by Assyria into the surrounding lands. The southern kingdom was exiled into Persia and then returned to rebuild the second temple.

The second temple does not have the presence of God. But it does have more devout people who are trying to uphold the torah. This is different than the era of the first temple. This brings in the messiah.

The messiah is a torah observant Israelite from Judah. Through using the Israel as the root, all of mankind can be grafted in. The 10 lost tribes of Israel are reconstituted through every man being able to be grafted in. Paul is basically the first person to catch on to this. Christians are not to become fully jewish torah observers because the torah is still in effect and christians cannot become jews except through marriage, circumcision and passover participation. And that the messianic age allows for Christians to be grafted in and live under the torah as foreigners. This is the counsel of jersualem. Christians are to follow the torah requirements of foreigners at the very least. No eating blood. No worshiping pagan gods, no participating in pagan sacrificial foods, no sexual immorality, no strangling animals as a means to kill them.

Jews who do not accept christ quickly demand that jews that do stop attending their synagogues and go found other houses of worship.

Fast forward 1900 years. The modern nation of Israel has no ties or prophecies left to the physical land or nation of Israel. They are LARPing under the name of Israel. The Scofield bible did an absolute number on evangelicals getting those purposefully confused. Modern evangelical devotion to Israel relies on weak understanding of church history and history of jews and christians post Jesus, and no church authority to correct this error.

It will die with boomers.

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With all due respect, I ask you who you think Paul was talking about when he said all Israel will be saved? He had no knowledge of the church or theologians view on who Israel was. No knowledge of the nation state of Israel or the Holocaust.

To me, it seems painfully obvious when Paul says Israel he was talk of g about the Newish people. What else would he mean at that time in history with his Jewish background.

We will agree to disagree my friend.

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At the time of Paul, the big question among the pharisees is how will the 12 tribes ever be reconstituted? That's the prophecy. But, the northern tribes are but dry bones (dead and gone). The assyrians took the northern tribes over 700 years from the time of Christ. The full nation of Israel is long long gone with no hope of tracking down descendants and trying to kickstart new tribes. 10 out of 12 tribes of Israel has been seasoned into the surrounding nations for a very long time. There are also israelites who stayed in babylon as well.

So getting the full twelve tribes of Israel band back together in one physical location is off the table.

The answer is that Israel will be saved through Christ. The lost tribes will be accounted for through the new branches grafted in. By gathering from all nations there will be descendants of missing tribes in them.

I wouldn't say he had no knowledge of the church - he is one of the first members of the church. And modern theologians view of Israel is an anachronism that puts modern christians superior to Paul's understanding who was there and is basically a prophet of the early church.

Paul is jewish, he is a Pharisee. There are tons of jews who are looking for the messiah and see Jesus as it. They form the early church. There is basically only a small remnant remaining anyway. Its Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Essenes.This is not Israel, but just a small remnant on its last stand.

To say that Paul thinks that a group 2000 years later than this remnant who explicitly rejected Christ as the messiah is somehow going to fully represent Israel is modern reading.

Also, the holocaust doesn't play into any of this. The Rothschilds could've set up shop in Minneapolis, called it new jerusalem and it would be the same. My sister in law goes to Antioch. She is not a member of the Antiochian Church.

Here's the progression of covenants in salvation history:

1. Adamic Covenant - Sabbath day
2. Noahic Covenant - Rainbow
3. Abrahamic Covenant - Circumcision
4. Mosaic Covenant - Passover
5. Davidic Covenant - Throne
6. New Covenant - Eucharist

The mediator's role progresses from husband, to father, to chieftain, to judge, to king, and finally High Priest.

We progress from married couple, to extended family, to tribe, to nation, to kingdom, and finally to the Church.

Israel is nascent in the early covenants. We see it explicitly in the nation and kingdom covenants. In the New Covenant, Israel is now the Church. For those that believe Israel the nation state figures into the covenants of salvation history, it seems that you've regressed back to a nation. Further, do you view yourselves as under a covenant with Our Lord? And what is the sign of this covenant?

To Derm's question about Romans 11:26, the prior verse speaks to the Gentiles coming in. Does that mean that we need to emigrate to the current nation state of Israel?

"Israel is now the church". My question is what context would Paul be using the term "Israel" with his Jewish background at that point in time.
I honestly can not conceive of him meaning anything other than the Jewish people as that was the only "Israel" he knew of.

We will agree to disagree.