Quo Vadis? said:

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Redstone said:

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Yeah, holy expletives indeed. And definitely quite a nebulous term.

We've well established by now:

- can be agnostic and Jewish
- can be atheist and Jewish
- can of course be religious and Jewish
- can be Buddhist and Jewish

But does this ill-defined and nebulous "ethnoreligion," with a very major center being Rabbinic discussion and built from the smoldering ruins of Titus's total decimation of Jerusalem, include Christian Jews?

Well, they're Christians.

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It's mind-boggling to me, the level of cognitive dissonance within the Jewish faith.

"Hey guys, you remember that time 2,000 years ago when we killed the Jewish carpenter? And since that time we've had no more prophets, and everyone on Earth has tried to kill us?"

The "Jews consider Christians polytheists" argument holds literally zero water considering all the other religions that worship multiple gods that a Jew can ascribe to while still being Jewish.

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Name one of those religions, please.

And your claim is that Jews as a whole are punished by God for Jesus's death? Just to be clear, you're advocating for the deicide charge?

Also, prophecy ended in Jewish tradition in the 6th century BC. Not after 70.

Would Judaism be one?
(Again acknowledging the large, diverse term, which can include atheism, but definitely doesn't include Jesus as Messiah)

I ask due to Kabbalah, which I only read about sometimes.

Is Shekinah as a feminine aspect of God and the Ein Sof as an essence associated with the masculine attributes, with erotic imagery to depict spiritual / sexual communion, and prayer as a unification of these masculine and feminine divine aspects?

Polytheistic? I don't know. But it seems to definitely be occurring, including at the wall ruin of the 10th Legion military HQ.

As to Jews killing Jesus, and committing deicide, of course they did, IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY THE JAPANESE BOMBED PEARL HARBOR.

It's a commonly accepted shorthand move in English where all reasonable people understand the history AND also that not all persons are guilty, allowing related conversation to then follow.

Therefore, a "curse" of eternal separation from God follows if one explicitly rejects Christ, assuming Jesus is God.

We all choose. No one has special DNA.

Redstone said:

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Would Judaism be one?
(Again acknowledging the large, diverse term, which can include atheism, but definitely doesn't include Jesus as Messiah)

I ask due to Kabbalah, which I only read about sometimes.

Is Shekinah as a feminine aspect of God and the Ein Sof as an essence associated with the masculine attributes, with erotic imagery to depict spiritual / sexual communion, and prayer as a unification of these masculine and feminine divine aspects?

Polytheistic? I don't know. But it seems to definitely be occurring, including at the wall ruin of the 10th Legion military HQ.

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You really are an ******* towards Jews. Just hope you understand that. Absolutely no common decency in any post I've seen you make about us. Go **** yourself.

The term can include such practices, atheism, Torah study of Karaite Jews, but not "Messianic Jews."

Feel free to actually answer questions anytime, and let me know if the above characterization is inaccurate. Kabbalah is widely practiced, is it not?

Here is a scholar and rebbetzin with an overview.

https://sqpn.com/2022/08/kabbalah-secret-teachings-jewish-mysticism-secret-teachings-esoteric-judaism-qabala/

Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Redstone said:

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Yeah, holy expletives indeed. And definitely quite a nebulous term.

We've well established by now:

- can be agnostic and Jewish
- can be atheist and Jewish
- can of course be religious and Jewish
- can be Buddhist and Jewish

But does this ill-defined and nebulous "ethnoreligion," with a very major center being Rabbinic discussion and built from the smoldering ruins of Titus's total decimation of Jerusalem, include Christian Jews?

Well, they're Christians.

---

It's mind-boggling to me, the level of cognitive dissonance within the Jewish faith.

"Hey guys, you remember that time 2,000 years ago when we killed the Jewish carpenter? And since that time we've had no more prophets, and everyone on Earth has tried to kill us?"

The "Jews consider Christians polytheists" argument holds literally zero water considering all the other religions that worship multiple gods that a Jew can ascribe to while still being Jewish.

---

Name one of those religions, please.

And your claim is that Jews as a whole are punished by God for Jesus's death? Just to be clear, you're advocating for the deicide charge?

Also, prophecy ended in Jewish tradition in the 6th century BC. Not after 70.

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That's easy; Buddhism. You guys even have a name for them; JewBu's

And of course the Jews committed deicide. Jesus was God, and he was killed by the Jews. If disobeying God caused all of mankind to bear the taint of sin, how could killing him not cause a stain?

There are a slew of other prophets in Judaism on up to the birth of Christ, you just don't call them prophets because of the uncomfortable truth that they're pointing to Christ, they've been retconned.

Redstone said:

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Would Judaism be one?
(Again acknowledging the large, diverse term, which can include atheism, but definitely doesn't include Jesus as Messiah)

I ask due to Kabbalah, which I only read about sometimes.

Is Shekinah as a feminine aspect of God and the Ein Sof as an essence associated with the masculine attributes, with erotic imagery to depict spiritual / sexual communion, and prayer as a unification of these masculine and feminine divine aspects?

Polytheistic? I don't know. But it seems to definitely be occurring, including at the wall ruin of the 10th Legion military HQ.

---

Not to mention Zoroastrianism, which is at least henotheistic.

Redstone said:

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I'll respond more when I have time, but one important reason why Christianity is older than Judaism is evidenced by the fact - very much demonstrated here - there is no way to succinctly summarize it, as one can in a single sentence with Christian faith and practice (Nicene Creed, Trinitarian baptism).

The reason is the radical disorientation of Jerusalem-based faith and practice being wholly decimated, and now only a small portion of Marc Antony's 10th Legion military headquarters remain.

As detailed a few pages back, even for far away houses of worship, this destruction NECESSITATED gigantic changes - which developed over 5 centuries …. and that's only ONE central aspect of the wholly new reconstituted faith (which yes, certainly does include the Torah - but only for some, and certainly not the very many Jewish atheists, or the many rabbis who ignore Torah for Talmud).

Diffuse, difficult, cloudy, new was the newly reinvented umbrella term, Jewish.

In the Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) faith, there are very clear definitions of: Temple, priesthood, faith and practice, and the people Israel, followers of Logos.

God is not the author of confusion.

Mystery, certainly, and Proverbs 25 tells us "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings."

But as He reveals Himself in history, the dynamic yet unchanging Logos, known for us as Jesus Christ, used the horrific and totalizing violence of 33 to 70 to invite the entire world into Himself.

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Implied within this is there was an old Jewish faith that no longer exists that you would argue is clearly and neatly defined(I'm not sure why a brief summary is necessary but let's roll with it). So why don't you provide the neat simple definition of Jewish that could be applied before Jesus was born for comparison.

strict monotheism, worshiping one God Yahweh, as described in the Torah (ie Deuteronomy 6:4, and no Oral Torah, covenant obligated Jews to follow God's commandments, as preparing the way for Messiah

Okay…I guess don't see how changing "no oral total" to "including oral Torah" is less succinct? Outside of that it seems a reasonable definition a modern rabbi wouldn't object to.

And to be clear I'm not unsympathetic to the claim that Judaism is different enough post 70 to be considered a new religion if you define the boundaries tight enough. As far as I'm concerned Judaism was very diverse before 70 with significant differences between sects. I would then though claim that many sects of Christianity are also a new religion using the same notion.

Sure, plenty of rabbis wouldn't object, especially those that adhere to Torah.

But that's the point, no? Especially given the many other "validities" that have been detailed?

Quote:

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would then though claim that many sects of Christianity are also a new religion using the same notion

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Categorically different.

Take the descent of "Students of the 7 Seals," or the Koresh followers (and I'm very against Clinton-Reno here, the point is theology)

Apostolic / Catholic - Anglican - Wesley followers - Methodist - 7th Day Adventist - Students

There were points, sadly including the Anglicans today, when the Nicene Creed and Trinitarian baptism were cast aside.

Therefore, not Christian, according to the vast, vast majority of Christians that have believed and practiced.

Not at all the same as the many post-70 definitions of Jewish faith and practice.

I actually don't follow your reasoning. Which rabbis would object? And what percentage of modern Judaism do they approximately represent?

And I disagree on your assertion of Christianity being fundamentally different. The wide array of beliefs that fall under the Christian umbrella does not appear to be less diverse than those under Judaism. And as I mentioned before, even with sects of Judaism prior to Jesus you have very different beliefs.

Ultimately the line at which we call something a sect vs a separate faith is subjective

Well, the examples would be legion, and include the prominent rabbis of the Talmud.

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz, author of The Essential Talmud, is really explicit about it, using words like the Torah is incomplete.

In Kidushin 40b, the rabbis state Talmud is greater, because it prompts action.

Or Rabbi Pini Dunner, who I occasionally listen to (feel free to verify quote, he says it a lot):

"the primary text of Judaism is undoubtedly the Talmud."

And I've given another prominent example a few pages back from a top rabbinical authority in Israel.

And a Christian atheist is an atheist, but not the case in Judaism, which we have well established.

It's nice you seem to focus on Torah, but how common exactly within Judaism, Karaites being the very notable exception?

You misunderstood. I spoke of modifying the statement you made to be "including the oral Torah"

I assume you're referring to:
Mishnah
Gemara
Midrash
Halakha
Aggadah

The oldest is probably from Rabbi Judah I, around 200.

So, 150 years after "the Way" was spreading, especially in urban areas, very heavily, commentaries began to appear…..in response to what, perhaps?

I'd highlight 1 Enoch (verified by Dead Sea scrolls as BC written) was likely common in the houses of worship Jesus taught and argued in, and where the Judeans (check Hart NT translation) read and prayed.

This is prominence of Son of Man (Daniel 7 is "like a Son of Man").

When Annas and Caiaphas rendered their garments and decried blasphemy, "Son of Man" was central to their upset - 1 Enoch is a "Trinitarian" book.

Jesus was claiming divine fulfillment of prophecy. That he was divinity in human form.

The codifications listed just above are AFTER the accounts of these days of the Holy Cross, and I would argue a response to.

Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

---

Quo Vadis? said:

---

Redstone said:

---

Yeah, holy expletives indeed. And definitely quite a nebulous term.

We've well established by now:

- can be agnostic and Jewish
- can be atheist and Jewish
- can of course be religious and Jewish
- can be Buddhist and Jewish

But does this ill-defined and nebulous "ethnoreligion," with a very major center being Rabbinic discussion and built from the smoldering ruins of Titus's total decimation of Jerusalem, include Christian Jews?

Well, they're Christians.

---

It's mind-boggling to me, the level of cognitive dissonance within the Jewish faith.

"Hey guys, you remember that time 2,000 years ago when we killed the Jewish carpenter? And since that time we've had no more prophets, and everyone on Earth has tried to kill us?"

The "Jews consider Christians polytheists" argument holds literally zero water considering all the other religions that worship multiple gods that a Jew can ascribe to while still being Jewish.

---

Name one of those religions, please.

And your claim is that Jews as a whole are punished by God for Jesus's death? Just to be clear, you're advocating for the deicide charge?

Also, prophecy ended in Jewish tradition in the 6th century BC. Not after 70.

---

That's easy; Buddhism. You guys even have a name for them; JewBu's

And of course the Jews committed deicide. Jesus was God, and he was killed by the Jews. If disobeying God caused all of mankind to bear the taint of sin, how could killing him not cause a stain?

There are a slew of other prophets in Judaism on up to the birth of Christ, you just don't call them prophets because of the uncomfortable truth that they're pointing to Christ, they've been retconned.

---

Buddhism is not necessarily a religion. It started as a philosophy. You can be an atheist Buddhist. Try again.

Okay, so you embrace the deicide charge explicitly rejected by the Catholic Church. Got it.

Redstone said:

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The term can include such practices, atheism, Torah study of Karaite Jews, but not "Messianic Jews."

Feel free to actually answer questions anytime, and let me know if the above characterization is inaccurate. Kabbalah is widely practiced, is it not?

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Your knowledge of Judaism is minimal and your arrogance is astounding. Anyone with an ounce of sense would be embarrassed. But you aren't. I'm done with your ignorance and bull***** **** off.

Yet more non-responses.

Please, at any time, do actually participate.

These are important topics, especially when ill-defined words are weaponized.

My guess is that you are capable, but the amply demonstrated, inherent difficulty of defining terms and religious "content" after the earth shattering events of 70 is the primary issue.

That's another topic. The codification occurs for the reason that they think it might not survive. But that's nothing to do with my question. So let's circle back to that. Modifying your statement to include the oral Torah what modern rabbis would object and approximately what percentage of Judaism would they represent?

Quote:

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Modifying your statement to include the oral Torah what modern rabbis would object and approximately what percentage of Judaism would they represent?

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Sure. I'll re-state and appreciate you asking.

Pre-Christ, as the Nicene Creed and Trinitarian baptism can fairly characterize Christianity, the following could perhaps for Jewish faith and practice, around the 2nd Temple era:

A strict monotheism, worshiping one God Yahweh, as described in the Torah (ie Deuteronomy 6:4), and no Oral Torah, with a covenant obligating Jews to follow God's commandments, as preparing the way for Messiah, including sacrifice.

Specific to your question:

Mishnah, Gemara, Midrash, Halakha, Aggadah would not be included in such a characterization, for reasons stated above.

But, if so for this thought exercise, it's possible a majority of rabbis would agree. Certainly the many ones that elevate Talmud could.

The difficultly, once again, is this: the great many atheist and agnostics that very strong identify with the term "Jewish." Including most of the founding mothers and fathers of nation-state Israel, co-existing right alongside their fellow religious Jews as strongly identified Jews.

Sapper Redux said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Quo Vadis? said:

---

Redstone said:

---

Yeah, holy expletives indeed. And definitely quite a nebulous term.

We've well established by now:

- can be agnostic and Jewish
- can be atheist and Jewish
- can of course be religious and Jewish
- can be Buddhist and Jewish

But does this ill-defined and nebulous "ethnoreligion," with a very major center being Rabbinic discussion and built from the smoldering ruins of Titus's total decimation of Jerusalem, include Christian Jews?

Well, they're Christians.

---

It's mind-boggling to me, the level of cognitive dissonance within the Jewish faith.

"Hey guys, you remember that time 2,000 years ago when we killed the Jewish carpenter? And since that time we've had no more prophets, and everyone on Earth has tried to kill us?"

The "Jews consider Christians polytheists" argument holds literally zero water considering all the other religions that worship multiple gods that a Jew can ascribe to while still being Jewish.

---

Name one of those religions, please.

And your claim is that Jews as a whole are punished by God for Jesus's death? Just to be clear, you're advocating for the deicide charge?

Also, prophecy ended in Jewish tradition in the 6th century BC. Not after 70.

---

That's easy; Buddhism. You guys even have a name for them; JewBu's

And of course the Jews committed deicide. Jesus was God, and he was killed by the Jews. If disobeying God caused all of mankind to bear the taint of sin, how could killing him not cause a stain?

There are a slew of other prophets in Judaism on up to the birth of Christ, you just don't call them prophets because of the uncomfortable truth that they're pointing to Christ, they've been retconned.

---

Buddhism is not necessarily a religion. It started as a philosophy. You can be an atheist Buddhist. Try again.

Okay, so you embrace the deicide charge explicitly rejected by the Catholic Church. Got it.

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Is Judaism a religion? Can you be an atheist Jew?

Sapper: "tHaTs DiFfErEnT"

Sapper Redux said:

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Redstone said:

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The term can include such practices, atheism, Torah study of Karaite Jews, but not "Messianic Jews."

Feel free to actually answer questions anytime, and let me know if the above characterization is inaccurate. Kabbalah is widely practiced, is it not?

---

Your knowledge of Judaism is minimal and your arrogance is astounding. Anyone with an ounce of sense would be embarrassed. But you aren't. I'm done with your ignorance and bull***** **** off.

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Is someone making you continue to respond to Redstone? This is like your 7th curtain call

Look, there's a lot of detail and information here. And it's valuable.

I'm not trying to "win."

The point is that the years of 33 and 70 are of titanic importance, including to us in our everyday lives.

If you're called anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic, unpack it. Demand definitions. Define terms.

Don't let it be a thought or conversation stop.

And explain WHY Christians are inherently anti-Jewish. And why there is no alternative. We follow His great commission, and care about Jewish souls, because they are fully human with choices, as we all have.

Redstone said:

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Quote:

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Modifying your statement to include the oral Torah what modern rabbis would object and approximately what percentage of Judaism would they represent?

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Sure. I'll re-state and appreciate you asking.

Pre-Christ, as the Nicene Creed and Trinitarian baptism can fairly characterize Christianity, the following could perhaps for Jewish faith and practice, around the 2nd Temple era:

A strict monotheism, worshiping one God Yahweh, as described in the Torah (ie Deuteronomy 6:4), and including Oral Torah, with a covenant obligating Jews to follow God's commandments, as preparing the way for Messiah, including sacrifice.

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Ok there is still confusion. I rewrote the second part. Now let's do it again. I just changed "no" to "including"


Your second statement asks about the term Jewish as an ethnicity. I frankly wish they had never picked the same word. Because they are different things.

Not sure if the 2 responses would be different? Please re-write if I'm not addressing directly. More broadly, such difficulties are inherent, and I think weaponized, especially when "anti-Semitic" gets thrown around (again, Wilhelm Marr, many Zionists, most NSDAP members were WRONG, as the term was and should still be linguistic / ethnic, ie shared characteristic of language).

So, in this mindset, which IMO is evident, for some Jews, especially ADL types, is it religion, ethnicity, race, culture, heritage ….Sure! How does it suit us at this moment?

Also, for clarity, that characterization of 2nd Temple era faith and practice would definitely NOT include any oral tradition developed post Resurrection, and certainly not the specific ones I listed.

Hypothetically, as in the Apostolic faith, oral traditions could be codified (by councils, in our case) but the mists of time between 1st and 2nd Temple make that hard to deliberate.

Again I'm not asking for a single statement that applies to the 2nd temple era. Your contention is that Judaism today could not be defined. I think it can by simple changing one word in your previous definition. I'm not looking for one definition that spans all time and all sects. I don't think that exists.

Well, I would respectfully disagree.

There are quotes from very prominent rabbis that could easily clutter this thread, that strongly downplay Torah and elevate Talmud.

And then, yet again, an essential fact here:
the many well known Jews who are / were self-proclaimed atheist / agnostic, and also identified strongly with the term Jewish, including founding mothers and fathers of nation-state Israel.

This really matters when trying to understand foundational definitions, and is a big reason why, post 70 AD, the phrase "The Nazarene is not the Messiah" has such explanatory power.

Quote:

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Your second statement asks about the term Jewish as an ethnicity. I frankly wish they had never picked the same word. Because they are different things.

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Exactly.

Consider, for example, an Irish Catholic. If he converts to another religion, he's no longer Catholic. But he's still Irish. Everyone can understand this, because there are distinct words for the national/ethnic identity and the religious identity.

But the word "Jewish" can refer to either one, and that's what's tripping people up.

Quote:

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This really matters when trying to understand foundational definitions, and is a big reason why, post 70 AD, the phrase "The Nazarene is not the Messiah" has such explanatory power.

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Why does it have any more explanatory power than "Muhammad is not a prophet" or "Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva are not gods"?

Because Jesus was a Judean, or a Jew depending upon how one views translations (I recommend the Hart New Testament translation)

Second, for many millions of people He was the fulfillment of the Torah. This should be, at a minimum, investigated for anyone that cares about Torah.

Third, because He predicted the end of His Judean contemporary faith and practice (Herodian Temple sacrifices, and He is the new Pascal lamb).

And even if one does not believe Jesus is God, the new Pascal lamb that can cleanse the sins of people, such claims are obviously tied to Jewish faith and practice ….

Especially after Titus decimated the Temple, and new practices were instituted