Who is Israel?

18,377 Views | 307 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Zobel
Zobel
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AG
Quote:

Consider, for example, an Irish Catholic. If he converts to another religion, he's no longer Catholic. But he's still Irish. Everyone can understand this, because there are distinct words for the national/ethnic identity and the religious identity.

But the word "Jewish" can refer to either one, and that's what's tripping people up.

This is a great example for how confusing this all becomes in modernity.

What were the Irish people? Various tribes who lived in Ireland, identified by some combination of locale and way of life (not an Irishman if you were a Celt from Gaul, nor if you lived in Ireland as a Germanic). Way of life was not arbitrary - it was culturally and linguistically distinct, with a kind of shared mythology and national identity that was expressed through religious and governmental practice. In ancient times this wasn't their DNA. Ancients didn't know what DNA was.

If you were a celt from not Ireland you were not Irish. If you were a non-Celt in Ireland you were not Irish.

Then those people converted to Christianity. They became something different. They were no longer what they were, and there was a distinction made between pagans and Christians as different peoples. This is how the ancients understood it, this is why Christianity was so disruptive - why it was so infuriating for the pagans when the Judaeans or Christians refused to sacrifice to the gods. They were not being part of the people.

The only way your statement "if he converts he's no longer catholic" begs the distinction between the people group and the religion - which is to say, the entire point. In ancient times, if you stopped doing the cultural thing of your people, you were no longer part of that people. If you stopped doing the religious festivals of Athenians you were no longer an Athenian. If you stopped worshipping Marduk you couldn't be Babylonian. You've become something else. The right statement is "if he converts he's no longer Irish".

So let's then explore what a Jew was. There are no "Jews" in the Torah - there were Israelites, some of whom were of Judah. Then there was a civil war and the people of Judah became distinct from the people of the northern kingdom of Israel. How? Tribal affiliation, which included in its essence religious rites and festivals. Then later there was the exile and return. How did Jews in Greek-dominated Judaea distinguish themselves? Way of life - circumcision, dietary restrictions, way of worship, and sure language and dress. The Greeks called this the nomos, the same word they used to translate the Hebrew torah. At the time of the second temple then, you were a Jew because you were one of the two- three-tribes who lived in Judah, who practiced the way of life of the people of Judaea, which included several strands of related religious sects (all who claimed the others were in some way deficient or false). "Jew" just means "Judaean" the same way "Irish" means "Irishman". You could also be a Judaean by maintaining the way of life of the Judaean outside of Judea, like our German living in Ireland. In the diaspora Jews did this.

So - be a Judaean you needed to be from Judaea and practicing the way of life of a Judaean, or living the Judaean way of life outside of Judaea as an identifier to continue your identity as distinct from everyone else. We all know Judaea didn't exist as a place for identity of a people group for a long time, so that leaves only the Torah, the common way of life.

The Judaean way of life is something of historical fact: religious belief in Yahweh and following the Torah. Nobody in the second temple era would have accepted that you were a Jew if you weren't circumcised, if you didn't keep the Torah (i.e., the Sabbath), if you worshipped foreign gods. If you told someone you were an atheist Jew, meaning you didn't believe Yahweh existed, that would have been sheer nonsense to them. Or as one second-temple era Jew put it - "not all who are of Israel are Israel" or as another noted Jews of his day said "neither will we transgress the commands of our law; and as we depend upon the excellency of our laws, and, by the labors of our ancestors, have continued hitherto without suffering them to be transgressed, we dare not by any means suffer ourselves to be so timorous as to transgress those laws out of the fear of death, which God hath determined are for our advantage...we will die before we see our laws transgressed."

Anyway all of this gets really challenged when you say: can you be a Jewish Christian? If your answer is "yes" then on what basis is one a Jew? maternal DNA? If your answer is "no" then on what basis is one no longer a Jew? merely being non-Christian?
Aggrad08
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AG
Except it really doesn't. Defining Judaism as a rejection of Christianity has no more explanatory power than defining it as a rejection of Islam. If you wanted to try and group them based on a negative you might try "the messiah hasn't arrived yet". But even that is wanting.

You yourself with very little change from me developed a definition that very few modern rabbis would reject. Go ahead and find me the rabbis who would reject it and let's see how much of modern Judaism they represent. Defining it otherwise is needlessly uncharitable. And this is coming from someone who is pretty sure the whole mess is false.
aggiedata
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AG
Charlie Kirk gets me re-energized to visit Isreal.

Redstone
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AG
Quote:

You yourself with very little change from me developed a definition that very few modern rabbis would reject. Go ahead and find me the rabbis who would reject it and let's see how much of modern Judaism they represent.


This is just inaccurate. I've given about a dozen references on this thread from prominent rabbis relevant to your suggestion, but let's revisit this one:

Israeli Chasidic Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz of Steinsaltz Edition of the Talmud

https://www.timesofisrael.com/never-mind-the-bible-its-the-sanity-of-the-talmud-you-need-to-understand-the-world-and-yourself-adin-steinsaltz/

Quote:

"It's a central pillar for understanding anything about Judaism, more than the Bible," says Steinsaltz, one of the world's best known Talmudical scholars. "The Talmud is not a divine gift given to people. The Jewish people created it. But on the other hand, it created the Jewish people. In so many ways, we're Talmudic Jews, whether we believe in it or not."


It's very obvious such a view is more common than the Torah-centric study of Karaites. Do you contend otherwise?
TBoneAg
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Redstone is completely correct in that the true discussion should first start with defining words that are used so often while arguing these topics. I've tried to get people to do this before starting a debate. Once you study the meanings and history of definitions, once written in different languages and translations, you will get a better idea of how this has played out. It does need to be studied for us to completely understand the conflict today. I've noticed the people that cannot fully define those terms laid out by Redstone deflect by using the same tactic he is trying to convince others that it shouldn't happen if definitions were understood. I've noticed this samething when debating.
Redstone
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AG
Significant evidence exists he was leaving such confused. Hagee-style understandings behind.
Aggrad08
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AG
Again you are making an argument I am not. I'm including the oral law. You seem desperate to force it out. That's not what they believe
Redstone
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AG
Oh? Rabbinical discussion with no Temple sacrifices, codified over centuries, obviously separate from Torah according to some of the most prominent rabbis in recent history, is similar to the paragraph we both agreed upon about pre-70 faith and practices?
Aggrad08
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AG
I asked for rabbis who would object to the paragraph you wrote with the modification I provided. So far I don't see any. I'm not and never have said there haven't been changes in Judaism, or that it's monolithic, in fact I stated it wasn't even monolithic prior to Christ.

Stop playing around with things I didn't say. You said a definition couldn't be provided. That very simply doesn't appear to be the case
Redstone
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AG
Incorrect.

I've said that after 70 AD, this large and diverse term, which can include atheism according to some of the well known Jews of all time who also strongly identified as Jewish, CAN be many things, but not "the Nazarene is the Messiah," and this has big explanatory power.

A major reason, from the Apostolic perspective, is because Jesus is the Christ and fulfills the paragraph in question.

That SOME Jewish scholars and rabbis would affirm most of it, as a Karaite MIGHT, tells us what? It's a big and complicated term that definitely doesn't include Jesus as fulfillment of the Torah.

To more directly address your pojnt, I would contend that ONLY Karaite Jewish study COULD fit the aforementioned characterization, and even then only weakly.
Aggrad08
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AG
Again you are mixing in the ethnicity aspect again. Why always in circles? And why any reference to the Nazarene? Why not simply the messiah hasn't come yet? I asked all this before. At this point you seem to be needlessly intractable
Redstone
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AG
You've again identified the entire point here.

Ethnicity. Shared characteristic. WHAT IS THIS FOR JEWISH IN A NON-CIRCULAR DEFINITION.

Post-70, what is the content here? Is it not obvious over these many pages there is none yet? Now:

Assuming you might say, based on my understanding of your recent responses, the aforementioned paragraph and including Talmud (ie oral tradition post-70), that STILL doesn't work. Why - the massive amount of agnosticism and atheism of very prominent Jews who strongly identified with the term.

Do you not see this knot? So, back to the question, give us the specific content of "ethnicity" here, post-Titus.
Aggrad08
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AG
If you understand that ethnically Jewish is distinct from religious Judaism why then the constant references to atheist Jews? That's very obviously not a religious claim.

You are talking out both sides of your mouth. It appears you are asking for a definition of Jewish that encompasses the religious and ethnic uses. And then criticizing any definition that applies to one or the other. I'm saying they are distinct. We should have different words for both to eliminate this confusion.
Redstone
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AG
There is no circular argument at all from me here. I've defined Christianity, pre-70 Judean faith and practice, ethnicity, and religion.

"Jewish" is inherently a confused term after Titus smashed the Temple. That's the problem here. IMO WE HAVE NO BETTER DEFINITION ON THIS THREAD THAN "THE NAZARENE IS NOT THE MESSIAH"

Seriously can you define "ethnically Jewish" ??

What is it? Of course our discussion is circular:

ANY DEFINITION of "religious Judaism" I accept. Literally, any …. But "Messianic Jews" are Christians, aren't they? Hmmm.

I refer to "atheist Jews" for exactly this reason. What is the definition of "Jew" with the most explanatory power? What do you say? WHAT IS THE POSITIVE DEFINITION here? Non-circular, please.

I'm absolutely not talking out of both sides of my mouth. DEFINITION. What is it.

I'm frustrated as well - now, can you actually define the "ethnicity" term Jewish? Is it better than the "negatively defined" one?
Aggrad08
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AG
I've asked you many times why the constant reference to the Nazarene. You've yet to address that.

So let's start with that then move on to an ethnic claim.
Redstone
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33 AD and 70 AD were extremely important dates for Jewish faith and practice, regardless of how one views the Messiah.


1).Jesus was a Judean, or a Jew depending upon how one views translations. For many millions of people, He was the fulfillment of the Torah. This should be, at a minimum, investigated for anyone that cares about Torah.

2) He predicted the end of His Judean contemporary faith and practice (Herodian Temple sacrifices, and He is the new Pascal lamb). So, even if one does not believe Jesus is God, the new Pascal lamb that can cleanse the sins of people, such claims are very obviously tied to Jewish faith and practice ….

Especially after Titus decimated the Temple, and new practices were instituted.

The Talmud, rabbinical discussion developed after Christ, is central to Judaism, according to a very significant number of high-profile and important rabbis. This came about after the gigantic destruction Jesus predicted in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
Aggrad08
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AG
That doesn't address the question. 70 AD is no doubt important. Go ask Jews how much time they spend talking about Jesus. They say he doesn't meet the criteria for the messiah for xxxx reasons and leave it at that. It's not at all central to their religion or identities
Redstone
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AG
Don't dispute that and it's not the point at all.

You asked why, in a thread about definitions of Israel and Jewish, I consistently refer to Jesus.

It's because, even implicitly, every single self-identified Jewish person lives and believes, or not, in the inescapable shadow of those tremendous events.

Related, and if that's wrong, then let's define the ethnic term Jewish. I've already done so and yet the only "opposing" view is extremely circular (look at the quote I highlighted from Sapper).
Aggrad08
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AG
You are forcing your Christian worldview onto a people who simply don't believe it or give it as much credence as you suppose. Defining them in these terms makes little sense in that light. Especially when the description you yourself write better defines their own beliefs.

Ethnic terms are generally circular at first glance unless you want to be pretty long winded about it. Forget the word "Jewish" for a minute. Let's define Italian. Does this work, is this a way we can call someone Italian?

A person whose ancestry, native culture, and historical origins trace to the Italian Peninsula and its people, sharing a common linguistic, cultural, and genetic heritage that developed primarily in Italy
Redstone
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AG
In the socio-religious context of this term, meaning Jewish faith and practice, as well as peoplehood (Zobel definitely correct about that this morning), the foundational, violent changes of the 1st Century are inescapable.

Given this historical reality, is irrelevant what an individual person thinks about the Messianic claim of Jesus.

Now, are you actually to define this term in the context of ethnicity (shared characteristics)?

Can anyone? With more explanatory power than what I'm articulating?
Redstone
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AG
And yes, such a type of "semi-circular" definition would fit Judean pre-70.

Let's address after the tremendous changes amid the smoldering ruins of the Roman-Jewish wars, for the many-ith time.

BonfireNerd04
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Do you agree that Jacob (aka Israel), Moses, and King David were "Jews"?

None of them had a Temple in Jerusalem during their lifetimes.
Redstone
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AG
Not really. As I said from page 2, the people Israel are followers of Logos, Emmanuel, God with us, who appeared in many places, including the burning bush.

Job, probably from the Caucuses, would be included here. I believe (from the Catholic mystical tradition) he offered valid sacrifice to God.

The term originates in Hebrew Bible, likely in Book of Jeremiah, about 6th century BC - referred to tribe of Judah or members of the Kingdom of Judah.

This was a primary vehicle for the Messiah, fully God and fully man - specific to a people, time, place, and then a covenant to all people under the great commission.
Zobel
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AG
No. They were Christians.
BonfireNerd04
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Zobel said:

No. They were Christians.


And the Muslims claim that they were Muslims. Why are they wrong?
Redstone
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AG
If an honest and earnest seeker of God persists in prayer and denial of self, a subjugation of the will to the will of God, will they encounter the Triune God? Be led by the Spirit to the Word, the Logos, God with us?

If so, then what we know as Jesus Christ is universal for all times and places.
Redstone
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AG
If so, there is a direct line of continuity from the sacrifices of Adam and Abel, of Moses and Abraham and Jacob, pascal lambs of the Herodian Temple, to the Eucharist.

Zobel
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AG
Well, your question is kind of answerable on multiple levels.

They're not "Jews" because "Jew" is an etymological descendant of "Judaean". Since they didn't live in Judea, they weren't Judaeans. The only one that could perhaps be a "Jew" is David, because he was from the tribe of Judah.

But by the way you've responded here, equating Christian with Muslim, you're not talking about ethnicity - you're talking about their faith and way of life. Islam doesn't keep the Torah, doesn't even pretend to. So they can't be both "Jewish" in that sense and "Muslim" because they led a different manner of life. Islam isn't related to the way of life practiced by any second temple people of Judaea, so either those people had to be completely disconnected to the way of life they received from their fathers (i.e., the Torah) or Islam isn't "Jewish" in any sense anyway, or a continuation of the faith of the patriarchs and Israel.

As to why they're Christians and not Muslims, because it is a verifiable, historical reality that Christianity is a continuation without break from a second temple Judaism. Islam isn't. We know when Islam came to be and we know its tenets and practices, and they're not even derivative of second temple Judaism per se; Islam something of a Christian heresy combined with tribal paganism. That was how it was understood by contemporaries of its founding.

As to why they're Christians in the absolute sense, it is because the Apostles never stopped practicing their faith as Judaeans, and the people who came to believe in Jesus Christ as the God Yahweh were catechized and brought into that same faith. St Paul calls this the traditions of his fathers. The other apostles in Jerusalem tell him how many of the Jews believed, and were still zealous for the Torah. Gentiles brought into the faith were told that their fathers were in the desert with Moses. Nowhere, not a single place in the New Testament, describes any kind of break with the faith described in the Torah, the faith of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and so on. The Torah itself is applied quite directly to gentiles coming to believe in the God of Israel by the Apostles; several New Testament authors quote from it and apply it as authoritative. They didn't see themselves as founding a new religion, on the one hand because no one thought like that, and on the other because their faith didn't change. St Paul never stopped being a Pharisee, never stopped keeping the Torah, never expected other Jews to stop either, and never expected anything but the application of the Torah to gentiles coming to faith in Jesus.

Whatever claim modern Judaism has to the various faiths practiced in Judaea during the second temple - and therefore connected to the faith of the patriarchs - Christianity has an equally strong claim. And in fact a stronger one, because Christianity itself precedes the tumultuous events Redstone is talking about and later reforms that we can trace through history.

On what basis could you call Jacob or Moses a "Jew"?
 
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