Accurate or no?

Israel's Law of Return, which didn't work for Oswald Rufeisen

"Messianic Jews" with Jewish ancestry can maybe immigrate and gain citizenship, but those converted to "Messianic beliefs" after being halakhically Jewish likely denied as having "voluntarily taken another faith."

And yet, "Jewish" not necessarily a faith?

Hmm. The "negative" definition certainly does seem to have major explanatory power.

Justice Moshe Landau wrote:
"A person cannot be a Jew and a Christian at the same time."

Yet-
we've both detailed many other things a Jew can be "at the same time," correct?

Redstone said:

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Accurate or no?

Israel's Law of Return, which didn't work for Oswald Rufeisen

"Messianic Jews" with Jewish ancestry can maybe immigrate and gain citizenship, but those converted to "Messianic beliefs" after being halakhically Jewish likely denied as having "voluntarily taken another faith."

And yet, "Jewish" not necessarily a faith?

Hmm. The "negative" definition certainly does seem to have major explanatory power.

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Holy ***** How many times does the exact same thing have to be explained to you? Seriously, how many freaking times? Christianity is seen as polytheistic and is typically not allowed for a Jew. It's religious and cultural as the two are very intimately tied given that Judaism is an ethnoreligion. However, a Jew who converts to something like Christianity does not need to go through a process to reconvert to Judaism as they were born a Jew. It's going to be a different, simpler process to rejoin the community. There are going to be exceptions to everything I've said. Judaism is a culture based around debate, learning, and process. There's no central authority for the religion or the communities. It's more common after WWII to see genetics prioritized due to how Europe treated Jews as a "race" regardless of belief or community, making genetics more prominent. Israel's policies regarding immigration are not the universal beliefs of Jews and the Rufeisen case was controversial in Israel at the time.

Your "negative" definition means ****ing nothing to a Jew.

Redstone said:

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Justice Moshe Landau wrote:
"A person cannot be a Jew and a Christian at the same time."

Yet-
we've both detailed many other things a Jew can be "at the same time," correct?

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Ethnoreligion, genius.

Yeah, holy expletives indeed. And definitely quite a nebulous term.

We've well established by now:

- can be agnostic and Jewish
- can be atheist and Jewish
- can of course be religious and Jewish
- can be Buddhist and Jewish

But does this ill-defined and nebulous "ethnoreligion," with a very major center being Rabbinic discussion and built from the smoldering ruins of Titus's total decimation of Jerusalem, include Christian Jews?

Well, they're Christians.

I've read this thread, and I think Redstone is on to something

It's a big and complex term, including the fascinating Karaites with small but high-profile conversions to the Apostolic faith (there are strong fulfillment arguments, after all)

But - the Russian "Christian Karaites" (check it out) are …. Christians!

Such examples tell us important things about foundational definitions, especially when patterns are present.

Quo Vadis? said:

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Redstone said:

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Yeah, holy expletives indeed. And definitely quite a nebulous term.

We've well established by now:

- can be agnostic and Jewish
- can be atheist and Jewish
- can of course be religious and Jewish
- can be Buddhist and Jewish

But does this ill-defined and nebulous "ethnoreligion," with a very major center being Rabbinic discussion and built from the smoldering ruins of Titus's total decimation of Jerusalem, include Christian Jews?

Well, they're Christians.

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It's mind-boggling to me, the level of cognitive dissonance within the Jewish faith.

"Hey guys, you remember that time 2,000 years ago when we killed the Jewish carpenter? And since that time we've had no more prophets, and everyone on Earth has tried to kill us?"

The "Jews consider Christians polytheists" argument holds literally zero water considering all the other religions that worship multiple gods that a Jew can ascribe to while still being Jewish.

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there isn't a cognitive dissonance Jews. Just b/c you guys cannot comprehend, doesn't mean there is cognitive dissonance. You guys are trying to put everything in a box, but life doesn't necessarily fit into a box.

Christianity has the most denominations out of any religion, yet it is one of the youngest. Why? Everything doesn't fit into a box.

Christianity has big internal disagreements AND can be clearly, fairly defined in a way that captures the vast majority of believers over 2,000 years.

In a thread about definitions, we see that for Judaism….well, the severe lack of summarizing is something, isn't it.

Yet, the statement that Christianity is older than Judaism - certainly my belief - can be easily and clearly argued.

Partly for the reason stated above, and partly through an understanding of what Judaism IS, post-70.

I've asked you gentlemen repeatedly for this IS, and it does seem no "box" could much contain definitions and details.

Redstone said:

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Christianity has big internal disagreements AND can be clearly, fairly defined in a way that captures the vast majority of believers over 2,000 years.

In a thread about definitions, we see that for Judaism….well, the severe lack of summarizing is something, isn't it.

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Judaism as a religion/faith is clearly defined.

On Christianity, got to disagree. It is not as clearly defined as you like to portray it. Yes, the general belief that Jesus is the messiah and died for sins is a central belief. Yet, the trinity isn't agreed upon wholly and actually isn't well understood either. If Christianity was so well defined, then all the groups wouldn't split into new groups due to disagreements.

Do it then.

You've ignored me above when I asked if my summary of your answer was correct, so maybe go back there.

For Christianity:
Nicene Creed, Trinitarian baptism, Jesus is fully God and fully man, and He should be worshipped.

Judaism?

Redstone said:

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Do it then.

You've ignored me above when I asked if my summary of your answer was correct, so maybe go back there.

For Christianity:
Nicene Creed, Trinitarian baptism, Jesus is fully God and fully man, and He should be worshipped.

Judaism?

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Didn't ignore you at all. I didn't see a summary of anything.

a reply of mine from page 6:

Quote:

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Positive definition of what? Judaism? One could say the Shema - Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One. One could say the 2 commandments or the 10. Ultimately, it is about returning to God, which is what all the commandments are about, ways to transcend

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You then started corresponding with the other guy again. I have stated the above a few times.

Interesting that the disciples never really worshipped Jesus. They prostrated themselves at his feet after the resurrection, but never worshipped. If this is so important, shouldn't the disciples of worshipped him? If he was fully a god, then should he be worshipped.

What are you talking about?

10/8, 4:30 pm and then look at your reply.

Happy to wait for an actual definition.

Jesus being worshipped:

by far the closest texts / testimonies we have to 33 AD - and without question generations closer than any Gnostic text - are New Testament works, even if we date Revelation to post-Nero (I don't).

The New Testament is really clear that Jesus is divine, Emmanuel, God with us, Logos (Reason, Order) of all creation.

Please check it out.

Redstone said:

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Jesus being worshipped:

by far the closest texts / testimonies we have to 33 AD - and without question generations closer than any Gnostic text - are New Testament works, even if we date Revelation to post-Nero (I don't).

The New Testament is really clear that Jesus is divine, Emmanuel, God with us, Logos (Reason, Order) of all creation.

Please check it out.

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no references in NT of Jesus worshipping him. So one has to go to works outside the Bible to show that Jesus was worshipped....yet 12 guys spent 3 years with him and never did. That is interesting. I know the NT quite well.

You are very wrong.

Start here: John 20:28: "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'"

I replied at 5:05:

You are trying to put me in the corner, for what reason I don't know. Why don't you come out with what you are truly getting at, b/c hiding behind all this is pretty bush league.

Judaism is a faith system. Being Jewish is an ethnicity.

More later, on the road, NT is really explicit Jesus is God

As to Judaism being a "faith system", what do you think about the many famous Jewish atheists who also strongly identified as Jewish?

You and Sapper seem to have a major disagreement here about such a "system," no?

Redstone said:

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You are very wrong.

Start here: John 20:28: "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'"

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How is this worship?

You really want to argue this?

Matthew 14:33: "Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly you are the Son of God.'"

Matthew 28:17: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted."

I don't think Sapper and I do have a disagreement, but even if we did, that doesn't prove anything.

There are protestants who will say Catholics aren't Christians. Great for them. It doesn't prove anything.

The word used here really means to prostrate.

I do believe Jesus said that true worshipers will worship the Father. If he is God why not say worship me?

A major reason the court advocated for His murder is:

John 10:30: "I and the Father are one," following His many self-identifications with 1 Enoch, a work quoted by St. Jude, as the divine "Son of Man."

Or: John 14:9: "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." Or: John 17:21: "That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you."

Good topic, not the topic of the thread.

Now, please define Judaism for us, in a manner non-circular and non-opaque, as I've done for Christianity. If a religious system as you said, what about the many very famous Jewish atheists that very strongly identified as Jewish. Ethno- yeah sure, what is the main unifying characteristic.

Redstone said:

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A major reason the court advocated for His murder is:

John 10:30: "I and the Father are one," following His many self-identifications with 1 Enoch, a work quoted by St. Jude, as the divine "Son of Man."

Or: John 14:9: "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." Or: John 17:21: "That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you."

Good topic, not the topic of the thread.

Now, please define Judaism for us, in a manner non-circular and non-opaque, as I've done for Christianity. If a religious system as you said, what about the many very famous Jewish atheists that very strongly identified as Jewish. Ethno- yeah sure, what is the main unifying characteristic.

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If we are defining things, you mentioned that he should be worshiped. Defining what they were actually doing is within the scope of defining things.

Man, you are the one talking in circles. Sapper and myself have both stated many, many times in different ways that Judaism is the religion. A person can be ethnically Jewish and not follow Judaism.

I don't know how many times I need to provide this to you. You can point to the top 2 commandments, the 10 commandments, the Shema. This is about the 5th time.

Y'all know what you call an uncircumcised Jew?


































































A girl

Quote:

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Judaism is the religion.

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Very little content and detail. Take what you stated, evidently in the "5th" time. That's fine, I accept it. Extremely different from the quotes of rabbis, especially the references to Talmud. Not making a comment about the validity of any of it.

The point is simple:

Christianity can be fairly summarized in a few sentences, with positive affirmation (believe this, do this) - which a strong majority would and do affirm, for many centuries.

Judaism: it's extremely obvious from this thread, and also from easy, everyday observation, such a summary doesn't exist. Thus the big explanatory power of "The Nazarene is not the Messiah."

Same applies to Ethno-, or shared characteristics.

Neither you nor Sapper have stated a shared characteristic as common for Judaism / Jewish as "The Nazarene is not the Messiah."

The reason is theological:

ALL Jews - be they atheists, agnostics, believers in God, Buddhists - who come to believe in Jesus Christ as divine are….

No longer Jews / Judaism

What other action or belief does this apply to, so universally?

Please, let us know.

Believe this, do this, doesn't exist within Judaism? So Jews who have a difference of opinion, which Judaism is very open to hard discussions and people questioning things, means we don't have a common belief? Yet, Christianity had to define itself with a creed to separate others. So one is group is saying if you don't agree with this, then you are not a "Christian". Sounds like exactly what you are saying about Judaism. Judaism, as you know, existed long before Christianity. It's followed the same Torah for centuries. The Torah is the way to God, not in the essence of do this and receive salvation, but the Torah is the way to transcend oneself to God. Yes, there is the physical doing of the commandments, but there is something much greater to them. Judaism doesn't need to create a nice neat little belief statement. From Mt. Sinai, the Jews know what to believe and do, at least conceptually. In your mind, Judaism is about Jesus wasn't the messiah. I think that is b/c that is your focus, your perspective, that's all you can see. Within Judaism, it is far different.

Regarding allowing back ethnic Jews who have gone to Christianity, it is all politics and fear. Thousands upon thousands of deaths have occurred in the name of Jesus and hatred. Horrendous treatment has occurred for many, many generations. Those that you highlight are only high profile cases. Judaism accepts converts and returning Jews all the time. I am one of them. You and I both know there is politics within the church as well. So let's stop pretending that all the accusations that you hurl towards Judaism doesn't exist within the church. Protestants, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witnesses, etc, these all exist because of ego's, politics, beliefs, etc. There are different segments even within Luthern, Methodist, etc. Many Baptist churches have stop using the word Baptist in their name, stopped the hard line on some things, so to appeal to more people.

So when Christians were killing Jews, forcing conversions, expulsion of Jews from lands, slavery, etc all in the name of Jesus, does this all fit within the creed?

I don't believe one minute that the Christian community, as a whole today, believes any of that was acceptable. Yet, at the time, they did. Why? Politics, fear, superiority, a mix. Kind of what you are purporting today, an air of superiority b/c Christianity has a creed.

Where are they called Jews in the Torah?

Where is the teaching that "the Torah is the way to transcend oneself to God" found in the Torah?

I'll respond more when I have time, but one important reason why Christianity is older than Judaism is evidenced by the fact - very much demonstrated here - there is no way to succinctly summarize it, as one can in a single sentence with Christian faith and practice (Nicene Creed, Trinitarian baptism).

The reason is the radical disorientation of Jerusalem-based faith and practice being wholly decimated, and now only a small portion of Marc Antony's 10th Legion military headquarters remain.

As detailed a few pages back, even for far away houses of worship, this destruction NECESSITATED gigantic changes - which developed over 5 centuries …. and that's only ONE central aspect of the wholly new reconstituted faith (which yes, certainly does include the Torah - but only for some, and certainly not the very many Jewish atheists, or the many rabbis who ignore Torah for Talmud).

Diffuse, difficult, cloudy, new was the newly reinvented umbrella term, Jewish.

In the Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) faith, there are very clear definitions of: Temple, priesthood, faith and practice, and the people Israel, followers of Logos.

God is not the author of confusion.

Mystery, certainly, and Proverbs 25 tells us "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings."

But as He reveals Himself in history, the dynamic yet unchanging Logos, known for us as Jesus Christ, used the horrific and totalizing violence of 33 to 70 to invite the entire world into Himself.

lost any credibility with Christianity is older than Judaism.

Judaism's practices were extremely, dramatically different after the Roman-Jewish wars.

The re-invention was comprehensive.

After 70 AD, when Titus smashed the Temple, leaving only a small portion of 10th Legion military headquarters:

Temple - body
Sacrifice - Mass
Ark - St. Mary
Priests - Apostolic priests
Circumcision - Baptism
Manna - Eucharist
Christ, Son of Man - Adam, fallen first priest of the Apostolic promise and founder of Jerusalem, over whose grave Christ was murdered

Christianity is a continuation of one of several second-temple Judaisms.