I went back and re-read my post. I think everyone's getting hung up on 3) Abandon arbitrary lifts with high risk:reward (i.e. squat, bench, deadlift).

In hindsight, that was the wrong choice of words. I should have said to use them judiciously for reasons I've already mentioned (unless you are actually competing in powerlifting).

I stand by the risk:reward part and the rest of my original post. If you don't agree, that's fine.

And, I have posted something similar on the running threads. Still with an emphasis on mobility but about adding in resistance training.

Both times, the impetus was injuries. Injuries that, in my opinion, are largely preventable.

Met with about the same response.

I've been doing this a long time - nearly 30 years - and I've just seen too many people sidelined because they pushed things too hard too long.

I lift for several reasons (granted I'm only 7 months in) and none of which are ego.

Health benefits (both physical and mental), self-confidence, stress relief, among others.

It gives me something to work towards and set goals for and keeps my mind off other unhealthy habits I had developed over the years.

So you basically join any fitness related thread to tell everyone that they are wrong to do things the way they do them and that you know better?

Sorry for trying to help.

When I say I've been doing this for nearly 30 years, I mean personal training (not just my own). I've learned a few things over that time so, yeah, I probably know better.

Take my advice or don't. Either way, I hope you guys reach all your goals.

The issue is you come across as incredibly arrogant, and you know next to zero about any of our training programs, background, goals, etc.

You've gleaned all of this from me saying I have tweaked my back one time and now are preaching doom and gloom.

AggieLAX said:

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Tex117 said:

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AggieLAX said:

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CC09LawAg said:

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Is it your position that if you lift with a barbell, it's all based upon ego?

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No. Chasing big lifts is. I've done it. We all do it. And, that's fine if you're will to pay the (potential) price.

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Post your PRs. Squat, Bench, Deadlift. Age when you did it, Body weight and height.

Let's cut to the chase here.

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What chase are we cutting to?

Squat: 350 (36)
Bench: 300 (30?)
Deadlift: 385 (42)

Height: 5'5
Average weight: ~150

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Slightly higher than I was expecting and decent for body weight, but hardly some powerlifting strength athlete.

So...you come into an exercise thread, come across like an arrogant a-hole, then just back off to the position of "do exercise in moderation?"

Thanks for your input and contribution to this thread. Its compelling and rich.

CC09LawAg said:

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The issue is you come across as incredibly arrogant, and you know next to zero about any of our training programs, background, goals, etc.

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Which is hilariously ironic after saying we lift because we have an ego

I know why I lift...

Well, I did that which I swore I would never do and I did sumo deadlift today for my working sets in hopes to avoid pushing my back too hard.

And…I think I liked it? My back definitely didn't hurt and I felt like I was 80-90% as strong as conventional and that's with 0 reps/practice.

Think it may make it into the rotation for a 5x5 on my light week.

Welcome to the dark side!

AggieLAX said:

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Here's my unsolicited and, what's going to be, wildly unpopular advice:

1) Dedicate a much larger portion of your training to mobility/joint health. Your joints hurt because they suck.
2) Diversify your movements (vary the speeds/rep ranges/planes of motion, choose unilateral over bilateral, etc).
3) Abandon arbitrary lifts with high risk:reward (i.e. squat, bench, deadlift).
4) Get in better cardiovascular shape.
5) Drop the fat.

I get the appeal of powerlifting/weightlifting. I really do. Who doesn't love hitting a PR? But, it's all ego.

Start playing the long game.

I'm 54 and this is the advice that I would give to my 30-year-old self.

Whatever you choose to do, please don't ignore #1.

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Wow. I am so glad I haven't been on this board in a while. I would of gotten into trouble. If I may...

LAX and I don't agree on a lot of stuff but he does know his sI-Iit. I know I should stay out of this, but as everyone knows I'm an azz ole and sometimes just can't help myself.

I'm 53 and broken from powerlifting.

1. I would of phrased it as dedicate more or at least SOME time to mobility/joint health. I sure wish I had.
2. I agree 100%
3. Arbitrary lifts was a poor choice of words. Unless you are competing, there are better options than benching with a straight bar. Dumbbells are much better on the shoulders than using a straight bar. There is no point squatting with a straight bar. Use a safety squat bar, cambered bar or duffalo bar.
4 and 5 I agree with. Use a hex bar instead for deadlifting (or just don';t deadlift)

It is all ego, no. Ego does play a part. One of the dumbest measures of strength is "How much can you bench?" If you say, I don't know, I only use dumbbells, and you can't correlate... your perceived strength is discounted. So... we all bench with a straight bar. Even though there are safer alternatives and better alternatives to build muscle.

Quite frankly, I wish I would of gotten into the strongman thing instead of powerlifting. When I first REALLY got into lifting strongman was a fringe sport. There wasn't a gym out there that had sandbags, kegs, t-bar trainers, etc. I think strongman does a good job at developing muscle but also gives you a better cardiovascular base than just lifting. It isn't the best for cardio. It isn't the best for building muscle, but it is a good combination. I can also tell you without hesitiation that I was a much better powerlifter than I could of have ever been a strongman.

I enjoyed competing - the comraderie, competition, all of it. I had moderate success competing. It was very humbling to be as good as I was but there were people out there with so much more talent than I had. Going back to the ego thing, I'm not going to lie. There was something about going to almost any place and KNOWING you were the strongest guy there or at least one of the strongest. Fat and out of shape, but still...I used to travel all over the US. I would train on the road in a lot of commercial gyms. It was fun watching people gawk. I loved it when I was benching three plates and someone would come over to spot me and then watch the look on their face when I said thanks, but that was a warm up set and I'd let them know if I needed a spot.

But for most people, myself included, if your goal really is to just get strong, there are better and healthier choices than your traditional lifting.

But LAX, this is the weightlifting thread. I believe your heart was in the right place when you gave life advice but no one on this thread gives two cents about our old man advice. It is a discusssion about weight lifting - bouncing ideas off one another, sharing experinces, etc. How many thousands of post training discussions did we have (not you and I personally) that mirrored the exact things that are being discussed here. When we old men show up and try to dispense with some of our old man wisdom on how weightlifting isn't the best thing to be doing, we come off very cringe.

We have no place here. Lifting is a young man's game. Old men who have dedicated a lot of their life to lifting... well, we can't lift anymore. Our hearts are in the right place in that we want people to avoid the mistakes we made, but quite frankly a young hoose would probably have had some of the same reactions. It is funny, an old very accomplished lifting friend of mine that I would say was one of my mentors... he said the exact same things to me when I was young. Did I listen, no. Do I wish I had, yes.

LOL, now troll hoose will sling back away for awhile since I probably have ticked off everyone. But cut LAX some slack.

My main issue is that some of the absolute statements are not factoring anything (programming, goals, etc.) and just used a a broad brush, painting a nice stereotype of us meatheads. They come off as just lighting a bag of crap on my porch and running away.


Abandon squat, bench and deadlift? The foundational complex lifts of any strength training program? To continue with the Austin Powers reference...


Better cardiovascular shape? And drop the fat? Is this just a broad assumption than anyone who strength trains is a fat slob who will die at 50 of heart disease? Is cardio only defined as jogging? Do we need to do half marathons and put a "13.1" sticker on our vehicles? Or is it possible that incline walking and high rep squats and deadlifts might just actually provide some pretty damn good cardio?


I won't argue with the idea that in theory if you're not competing you can ditch the regular barbell. But most folks are not elite lifters under crazy loads. If you have bad form a SSB is still going to expose your bad form just like a regular barbell will. I think a lot on here are absolutely trying to dial in correct form and learn the right way.

I can't stand the ego talk. There is ego in everything in life for everyone. Lifting weights is nothing special in that regard.

Just because some of us aren't "competing" in the traditional sense doesn't mean we don't like to compete. Reality is that a lot of us chase numbers just for the inner-competitive side. We are well aware it will do nothing for us on a resume and that our spouses could not care at all what we can deadlift. All of us have things in life we want to have some kind of drive for. It's good for you.

Lifting is not a young man's game? I have had countless times that I have been inspired by seniors who continue to crush it. That takes a lot of discipline to be able to have that longevity and I think we all want that. I think you have great advice and a lot to share, but most of us do not have your experience nor will put our bodies through the grind that you did. I will still happily listen to what you have to say, just out of respect however.

I appreciate the respect 10 but some of that is a little harsh. I will be more than happy to continue the conversation an another threat so dont take this as me running away from the conversation. This will be the last time I comment on this issue on this threat.

Our opinions and thoughts about subjects are all filtered through our life experience.

Like I said, LEX has been around. I dont agree with a lot of what he says. I think I can see some of it from his point of view. Also, I think I can see some of it from your point of view.

This thread is about weightlifting. Exploring idea, seeking feedback, a place to share successes and lament failures. It also isnt the place to debate the value in the grand scheme of things. On this threat, my only criticism of LAX is his delivery and that this isnt the place for his message. LAX, if your reading im not criticizing the validity of you message, just this thread isnt the place.

Part of my story and my filter is this. I had been lifting with about 4 guys for about 8 years. Periphery folks came and went. I loved the whole process, work and relationships. That was the main reason I lifted. The gym was my church. The seeking of knowledge was my passion.

When I was told I couldnt lift anymore, it eventually took a lot away from me. My coping mechanism. My support group. A part of my self identity. A part of my self value. A lot.

At first, the core guys were very supportive. I was lifting and a powerlifting/strongman centric gym. I had respect from most folks. Hell, even Robert Oberst worked out there for a while and he was always friendly. I desperately wanted to still be part of the game. And for a while I was. As time went on, gym member filtered out and new folks filtered in. The core group kind of disbanded and those that were left kind of drifted off. In the lifting world that I was in, if you couldn't walk the walk... well. I tranformed from a guy that was well respected because of my accomplishments to that know it all gym azz one. And I seriously just wanted to help and still be part of the community.

Looking back, I get it. But I was very bitter (over dramatic here) to be kicked out of the community I was part of for a significant portion of time. If you want to go back all my post and find some of them from that time, I think youd recognize that bitterness.

And 10, if I was a gambling man I think you checked me on it. Could of been somebody else, but your tone on this reminds me of the tone of my check. The sum of all of it, I kind of checked out of all my strength community.

Obviously Im still passionate and still love the discussion and thought processes. Hell that is why I still come to this board.

I have some of LAX's viewpoints about how strength training is everything. I want to stand up and scream DONT BE LIKE ME! Old guys 20 years ago tried to open my eyes. But Im me. Im stubborn. I think what makes me, you, others on this board successful in our lifting endeavors are some of the traits we all share. For example, Law, if you get this far some of the some of the enthusiasm, attitude, takes irk me a little. Why? Because it reminds me so much of me 20 years ago. I dont know if that is a complement or an insult.

LAX reminds me of me 8 years ago. And LAX im 100% projecting here. I could be completely wrong on my projections and maybe these guys are right and you could be totally... er difficult. Sticking my nose into conversations that my input was not appropriate. Back then all I wanted was to still matter in a community I loved being a part of.

So through my filter i get both side. My filter... all could be wrong. I get LAX, from my perception, wanting to save the world from repeating my sink. I get yall getting irritated. I think I see it from both sides. And im not saying either side is right or wrong. I think I have at least a slight understanding of both motivations. Once again it could be my arrogance and I could be all wrong.

And im done with that topic on this thread. This thread is the appropriate forum to continue this discussion.

Next topic from your post.

Lifting is a young mans game. Ive been inspired watching an 80 year old woman compete. What I mean by my statement is that the ability, passion, the community all comes together around young men. My experience has been that once you know longer can walk the walk, your credibility wants. You become Al Bundy talking about scoring 4 touchdowns for Polk high (lol I sure hope someone gets that reference). I'm not Super D and dont have the street cred he does. I dont look like the powerlifter I was. Now im just a semi big old man. Who is going to listen to me? Thats what I mean about it being a young mans game. I 100% agree that strength training is important. But the knowledge, the advancements are all being advanced by young men who have the ability to do the work. Us olds are just trying to keep the old jalopy that is our bodies running.

I hope all of this makes sense and doesnt offend. I stepped way over the line on some of my projections.

I enjoy peeking in on this thread from time to time. Yall are doing a hell of a job supporting each other and hashing out lifting stuff. I pop off every now and then when something interests me or I think I have point that no one is making.

Now ignore this derail. Get back to discussing what this thread is all about. The only reason why I even stuck my nose in this in the first place is that I thought I might have a unique perspective and in the strength community we need to be supporting each other. I again apologize for my projections.

Damn. I reread my posts. Auto correct sucks! Lol!

Quote:

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Some dudes on here need to hit cardio a bit more, but thats an ongoing discussion.

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This is a good post

Hoose, I appreciate you and your infinite wisdom on this thread. Some people, myself especially, are going to learn the hard way. As I get older, my priority has shifted a lot more towards longevity and health. It's just really hard when I'm in my late 30s and I'm stronger than I have ever been in my life and probably look better than I did going back to about high school. I could lean out a little and have aspirations to do so… I just need to hit my PR I'm like 5-10lbs away from on bench. Maybe I can get some more advice from you on that?

Infinite wisdom? Lol. Trust me my wisdom is very limited.

And LOL on the just gotta reach my PR. That is a lie we tell ourselves. There is always another PR.

Without seeing your form I probably cant give you specific advice.

Some general advice:
You want a big bench, train like a power lifter.

Up you caloric intake.

Work on your back - lots of pull ups and rows.

Work on your speed. Have 1 day a week for max effort. Have another day where you work on your explosiveness. Use bands or chains or passed reps and really focus on getting the bar up as fast as possible.

Work on your tris. Dips dips and dips.

One specific thing that works sometimes is floor presses with a pause. It really helped once for me and helped some in later training blocks. Ive seen it work many times with folks who have never done them before. Ive also seen it be useless on occaision.

Dial your form in. Ive trained with some really good lifters who had one day of bad form and it take them 6 months to get it back.

If all else fails, try some vitamin t supplementation. That always works.

Hoosegow said:

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Infinite wisdom? Lol. Trust me my wisdom is very limited.

And LOL on the just gotta reach my PR. That is a lie we tell ourselves. There is always another PR.

Without seeing your form I probably cant give you specific advice.

Some general advice:
You want a big bench, train like a power lifter.

Up you caloric intake.

Work on your back - lots of pull ups and rows.

Work on your speed. Have 1 day a week for max effort. Have another day where you work on your explosiveness. Use bands or chains or passed reps and really focus on getting the bar up as fast as possible.

Work on your tris. Dips dips and dips.

One specific thing that works sometimes is floor presses with a pause. It really helped once for me and helped some in later training blocks. Ive seen it work many times with folks who have never done them before. Ive also seen it be useless on occaision.

Dial your form in. Ive trained with some really good lifters who had one day of bad form and it take them 6 months to get it back.

If all else fails, try some vitamin t supplementation. That always works.

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This is probably my last realistic milestone unless I supplement with some vitamin T. I'm not gonna lie and say I'll just wake up the next day and be content and not try for more, but realize I'm about the peak of a natural bench for my body, or so I think.

I hear you on the eating part… I've actually tried to lean out a little last month or so and think it's adversely affecting my strength. Bench is still holding on but not really progressing. I guess I should just bulk for a few weeks and then hit the goal and then lean out?

And regarding my form, everyone can always improve. I used to think I knew how to bench properly but now I just realize I know not to bench heavy. I could always use more help.

Alright, that's the motivation I needed. Thank you sir! I'll report back when I hit but it's probably going to be a month given next two weeks are travel for work and I don't like pushing bench or squat above 92-95% when I'm not in my home gym. Too much variation in the bars and plates for me to feel comfortable… yes, I tend to overthink/analyze

Well... take the next two weeks - very average mundane "heavy" days, but focus more on speed work. Most of the time heavy work is the focus and speed work is secondary. Nothing wrong with for two weeks really focus on speed work and sustain the heavy lift.

Complete change in stimuli actually might do you some good.

For example, let's say 315 is your normal heavy work the work you are comfortable with in your home gym. For the next 2 weeks, your heavy work is only 275. Home gym, 275 is ezpz. Instead, shift your focus to 185, but focusing all on speed.

Kind of shift your mindset... from focusing on heavy work and speed work kind of supplement that to focus on speed work and let your 'heavy' day be more of a supplement.

I cant promise it will see benefits. What I can promise is that it wont hurt for 2 weeks. And the potential upside is promising. Worst case you lose nothing but at least have semi deload.

Before your next PR... like I said, train like power lifter. Do a butt load of work leading up to it. Lets say you plan your PR attempt on Saturday. Two weeks before, you body should be pretty tore up from the volume. Sunday or Monday, go into the gym. Dont got stupid light. Lets say you are trying to hit 300. Sunday go to the gym. Maybe do 3 set of 3 at 225. Maybe jump on the treadmill for a moderate walk for 20 minutes and go home. Dont do a thing until the day of your attempted. Maybe go for a leisurely walk a couple of time to get the body loose. Since it isnt a competition, you dont have to cut weight. Eat well during the week. Dont go to the gym for any reason other than to jump on the treadmill.

On attempted day, go through your warm up. Not stupid slow but dont rush it. Approach the day like you are going to get 3 attempts. My approach was always first attempt heavy but something you have a high degree of confidence you can make. Its more of a final warm up. Gets your CNS primed. Second attempt should be your target. If you miss... go over the lift and reflect where you missed up and think about how to correct it. If you hit it... make the decision on whether or not you want to attempt a stretch goal. If you are happy stop. Finish your regular workout or pack up and go home. You accomplished your goal.

Thinking on this, I bet if you just did this... prepare your body for one max effort... I bet you physically can already reach your goal if you are only 5-10 lbs away. Mentally... lol... thats a whole different discussion.

09... thank you for this. Damn I miss it. I feel like a kid. All of a sudden im watching this thread like hawk. Been chewing on this entire thread all evening. So excited to see the responses. Love the mental exercise. Like I said in my rant, so pumped to (at least in my mind) be part of community that I loved at one time.

Ill crawl back in my hole in a little while. But a good reminder how much I loved all this at one time. Like hooking up with an old girlfriend.

Hoosegow said:

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For example, Law, if you get this far some of the some of the enthusiasm, attitude, takes irk me a little. Why? Because it reminds me so much of me 20 years ago. I dont know if that is a complement or an insult.

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Oh I'm just busting his balls - I know where he's coming from and I get it, it's just kind of a funny take for this thread.

I don't have the time or desire to let this consume me - I've got a wife and kids and job. I go on walks, do sleds, ran sprints to race my kids today. I have no desire to turn into a blob who can only move heavy weight.

That is part of why his post made me laugh - I think I'm actually slowing down my progress on the big 3 because I'm not going all in on powerlifting.

I'm confident with my program and feel like I'm taking a very long and measured approach, which I think 5/3/1 is tailored towards so it's a good fit for me.

Hoose, your advice and input is always appreciated so I say thank you for taking the time to type out your last few responses. I know your intentions are good and you've got the skins on the wall so there's nothing you could say that I wouldn't seriously ponder/consider.

I appreciate the heck out of you sharing your knowledge! You'd make an excellent coach.

Eidt - LOL, wth? Why the thumbs down? I didnt do that.

I get it. Normally I dont have the time nor the desire to follow and post. Wife is gone welcoming grade daughter #3 into the world. Normally I would be deep into my coping mechanism by being drunk. This has been a healthy distraction for me.

Edit . Lol again re reading my post. What the hell? How did the thumbs down get there

This whole thread reminds me of the thousand of post training discussion we used to have. Same topic. Sam.e debate. Different age. Different media.

That was my point i tried to make to 10 with the age thing. I shouldnt be a regular participant in the discussion. You young guys, collectively, here and all over the world are pushing the strength game forward. Whether I could still lift or not, I am passed the point of being able to challenge my body to test idea. Yall aint. I understand that.

Day to day conversations... I have no business being part of. Yah.. I got experience. Yah, I think some of the old school ways are better than whats going on now. For example I hate the focus on programing. My opinion (some of which is universal) you cant out train a crappy diet. Form is vastly superior to programming. Programming is the least important. Seems like today those are switched. 20 years from now I'm might be proved wrong. But that is what you guys have to figure out.

That debate again is a whole different thread.

I thank all yall for having patience with an old man yelling at the clouds.

I always discount my value. I also really appreciate some of the respect at a time in my life that I need it more than you know.

Hoose,

So many of us are stuck behind desks, having to put dreams on pause, and generally choosing the "safe" path in life. And there's nothing wrong with that, sometimes that's just the sacrifice that has to be made.

But you went for it, and pushed yourself to your absolute limit. And to me at least, there is a tremendous amount of respect for people who do that. The extreme example to me is Ronnie Coleman - if you ask that guy, I don't think he'd do anything differently than he did. But usually there is some kind of collateral damage from going all in on something, which you've alluded to.

You'll never have to ask yourself if you could've done more, pushed harder, etc. And that's part of why I'm on this lifting journey - I don't want to look up in 20 or 30 years and ask myself, did I miss out on something? Did I leave my potential in the rear view mirror, and I'll never reach it?

My hope is by trying to do it now I show my kids the importance of exercise and strength training so I can be the example to them I never had.

Hoosegow said:

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Like hooking up with an old girlfriend.

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You didn't even by us dinner!

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You young guys, collectively, here and all over the world are pushing the strength game forward.

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I can assure you with 100% certainty that I am not pushing any strength game anywhere. (Though some dudes on here are).

Like 09 said, your opinions, thoughts, and experience are something that is not only earned but should be shared if you are willing. I have a great deal of respect for anyone that pushes something like you did to the absolute limit.

The issue with Lax's "advice" is that it really only applies to .00000001% of folks. Most folks would benefit greatly by squatting, deadliftng, benching, and overhead pressing (or even some variation thereof), but thats hard and really uncomfortable. Most would rather do some other silly sheet like swinging around some kettlebells and not really see any real benefit. The message should be to almost anyone "get stronger," but don't break yourself doing it, and don't let other facets of health go to wayside while you are doing it.

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Quote:

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Some dudes on here need to hit cardio a bit more, but thats an ongoing discussion.

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Currently in a calorie deficit and I'm feeling it in the gym.

I just have to myself to keep grinding.

I'm in the same boat, and for about a week I couldn't lose a damn pound so it made it even more frustrating.

Down 4 pounds now though so I'm at least seeing something out of it.

Need to get back down to about 220-225 then I'm going to start hitting it hard again.

texag06ish said:

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Currently in a calorie deficit and I'm feeling it in the gym.

I just have to myself to keep grinding.

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YUP! Those glycogen stores go quick in a deficit. You will get weaker. Its just the way of it.

That said, I found that the strength (and muscle for that matter) comes back at a much faster rate than it did the first time after your cut and your bring your calories back up.

Ive said it on here before. But I bulked from 164 to 240 in two years (wasn't a perfect bulk and put on too much fat). Cut down to 194 in about 5 months. Now I'm heading back up and in the last 4 months, Im up to about 202. Im just a click weaker than I was at 240, and definitely relatively stronger for my body weight.

In other words, its all part of the process and you aren't "losing" progress. Just modifying what progress looks like.

Appreciate the feedback.

My current focus is on leaning out to 10% body fat then bulking again. Let's see how it goes!

Damn! That's pretty low. You are probably going to lose a good bit of strength and muscle getting that low. (But maybe you can pull it off. Just keep a close eye on it when you are sub 15 percent)


12 to 15 percent (if you are sufficiently muscled) should be plenty to have the abs (if that's what you are going for).