100% and we know this because US was hammered all game with no whistle while Mexico was given the weakest whistle of the match that led to the second goal. And because VAR didn't initiate reviews on any of the multiple potential penalties before the Luna moonball attempt.oh no said:
USA didn't deserve to win that match based on how poorly they played, but roles reversed, 100% chance Mexico is awarded a penalty for a handled ball in the box there. Even though center ref missed it (and shouldn't have), the fourth official would have had him on VAR immediately to correct an obvious mistake.
***** USMNT vs Mexico - 2025 Gold Cup Finals *****
16,101 Views |
473 Replies |
Last: 28 days ago by zgolfz85
akm91 said:
The inconsistency of calling fouls last night was mind boggling. You have no idea what to expect. Players (from both teams) were being whacked and no foul is given but someone falls down from a slight touch then it's an immediate foul. Ridiculous.
When has Concacaf ever had good officating?
You go into it expecting the referring to suck. US was outplayed and outclassed.
Our team is terrible unless we're playing countries with the population of DFW.
Milwaukees Best Light
Joined:
Nov 1, 2007
Posts:
18,268
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I don't think it should have been a penalty. I think in the current state of the game that it would have been called a penalty in most instances. I just don't like the microscopic lense that the game is currently being officiated under. I don't think it adds to the game. I think var needs to be reduced. It is disrupting the beautiful game. I don't think var factors intent and advantage well at all, and that is a major part of what makes the game great. I agree with Stu on the broadcast. Defender didn't gain anything from the hand ball and the us didn't lose anything by him handling the ball (not referring to losing a penalty attempt). Play on.
From this picture, it sure looks like the defender is watching the ball as he's falling and has opportunity not to impeded the ball with his hand.
Think it should've been a penalty.
Milwaukees Best Light
Joined:
Nov 1, 2007
Posts:
18,268
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Good example of what I am talking about. Trying to guess intent from a still frame is generally not a great plan, and I personally believe intent should still be a significant part of the way a game is called.
I feel like you greatly overestimate what a person can do or even process mentally while fighting gravity in a quarter second.
That look is likely more like "oh #%+!" because he realized there was nothing he could do.
That look is likely more like "oh #%+!" because he realized there was nothing he could do.
This was not the case for several years up until last summer. I think there is a bit of overreaction because of the result last night and the way it looked most of the game. We were playing with none of our favored fullbacks and only two of our best midfielders+attackers, including probably our 4th or 5th best striker in the pool. Arfsten and Freeman probably won't even be second choice fullbacks by next summer. Freese won't be the keeper for the WC.Rudyjax said:akm91 said:
The inconsistency of calling fouls last night was mind boggling. You have no idea what to expect. Players (from both teams) were being whacked and no foul is given but someone falls down from a slight touch then it's an immediate foul. Ridiculous.
When has Concacaf ever had good officating?
You go into it expecting the referring to suck. US was outplayed and outclassed.
Our team is terrible unless we're playing countries with the population of DFW.
Mexico is better than they have been in the past 5ish years, but let's not act like our best players in the pool were playing last night and looked like garbage.
ah. I was in the stands at NRG and was under the impression that this was not even looked at for clear and obvious error on a penalty decision- one of the explicit purposes of VAR.Rudyjax said:
And they did look at it on VAR I believe.
shack009 said:This was not the case for several years up until last summer. I think there is a bit of overreaction because of the result last night and the way it looked most of the game. We were playing with none of our favored fullbacks and only two of our best midfielders+attackers, including probably our 4th or 5th best striker in the pool. Arfsten and Freeman probably won't even be second choice fullbacks by next summer. Freese won't be the keeper for the WC.Rudyjax said:akm91 said:
The inconsistency of calling fouls last night was mind boggling. You have no idea what to expect. Players (from both teams) were being whacked and no foul is given but someone falls down from a slight touch then it's an immediate foul. Ridiculous.
When has Concacaf ever had good officating?
You go into it expecting the referring to suck. US was outplayed and outclassed.
Our team is terrible unless we're playing countries with the population of DFW.
Mexico is better than they have been in the past 5ish years, but let's not act like our best players in the pool were playing last night and looked like garbage.
Our team is our team. That's the best team we could put out there.
but I was under the impression that Mexico was also missing a lot of first choice players in this tournament
(albeit both Jiminez and Giminez #9s are their top two)
(albeit both Jiminez and Giminez #9s are their top two)
I know that sounds like something intelligent, but it completely neglects the point that 2 of the 8 players who may go forward in the run of play are favored starters. And it's debatable if Ream will be the other CB at the start of the WC.Rudyjax said:shack009 said:This was not the case for several years up until last summer. I think there is a bit of overreaction because of the result last night and the way it looked most of the game. We were playing with none of our favored fullbacks and only two of our best midfielders+attackers, including probably our 4th or 5th best striker in the pool. Arfsten and Freeman probably won't even be second choice fullbacks by next summer. Freese won't be the keeper for the WC.Rudyjax said:akm91 said:
The inconsistency of calling fouls last night was mind boggling. You have no idea what to expect. Players (from both teams) were being whacked and no foul is given but someone falls down from a slight touch then it's an immediate foul. Ridiculous.
When has Concacaf ever had good officating?
You go into it expecting the referring to suck. US was outplayed and outclassed.
Our team is terrible unless we're playing countries with the population of DFW.
Mexico is better than they have been in the past 5ish years, but let's not act like our best players in the pool were playing last night and looked like garbage.
Our team is our team. That's the best team we could put out there.
Someone posted earlier they had 7 of the smae starters last night as they did in the Nations League. And that was with Santi starting in the Nations League, while they had him on the bench last night. Most of their top choices were available, while most of ours were unavailable. And we were on our 3rd choice striker at best, you could also argue he's not that high.oh no said:
but I was under the impression that Mexico was also missing a lot of first choice players in this tournament
(albeit both Jiminez and Giminez #9s are their top two)
Not to mention that Antonee Robinson is arguably the most important player we could lose. The drop off from him to Arfsten is way wider than any other drop off.
drop from Dest to Freeman has to be close too
problem is, who else is there after Jedi and Dest at LB and RB? Afsten might be still be our second best LB, which means he'll be needed on the squad next summer.
problem is, who else is there after Jedi and Dest at LB and RB? Afsten might be still be our second best LB, which means he'll be needed on the squad next summer.
I guess this is the match thread instead of the team thread, but I am fairly convinced that our player pool was the strongest it's ever been a handful of years ago, which was when the Jurgen Klinsmann revamp of youth soccer development and the USSDA had players who went through a lot of the DA program beginning to peak.
USSF got rid of DA and essentially handed responsibility of youth development over to MLS academies in 2020. MLS academies have a profit model and designated non-American players at their forefront. They can also develop "home-grown" talent this not American and/or is eligible for other countries. No need for MLS clubs to prioritize development of home grown American talent. In addition, a few years after USSF got rid of DA, MLS signed all their TV rights over to Apple TV. Our youth not only don't get much attention or guided structure from US soccer but our youth also can't even really watch domestic professional soccer on TV in this country. Combine that with longer standing problems of the pay to play structure of clubs and the Title IX limitations for men to play collegiate soccer - boys/mens soccer is pretty much either professional track- MLS academy for the very few- or just for fun in an expensive club with little exposure and little incentive to stay in it vs other sports.
All that to say, I think the popularity of the sport has been hemorrhaging with our youth for the past 5 years. We should always be able to field a decent top 11 in international soccer, but the quality and depth of our overall player pool is slowly going backwards and will continue to show for the next several years if not longer, IMO.
USSF got rid of DA and essentially handed responsibility of youth development over to MLS academies in 2020. MLS academies have a profit model and designated non-American players at their forefront. They can also develop "home-grown" talent this not American and/or is eligible for other countries. No need for MLS clubs to prioritize development of home grown American talent. In addition, a few years after USSF got rid of DA, MLS signed all their TV rights over to Apple TV. Our youth not only don't get much attention or guided structure from US soccer but our youth also can't even really watch domestic professional soccer on TV in this country. Combine that with longer standing problems of the pay to play structure of clubs and the Title IX limitations for men to play collegiate soccer - boys/mens soccer is pretty much either professional track- MLS academy for the very few- or just for fun in an expensive club with little exposure and little incentive to stay in it vs other sports.
All that to say, I think the popularity of the sport has been hemorrhaging with our youth for the past 5 years. We should always be able to field a decent top 11 in international soccer, but the quality and depth of our overall player pool is slowly going backwards and will continue to show for the next several years if not longer, IMO.
That team that played was crappy. That's the team we had out there. That was our team.shack009 said:I know that sounds like something intelligent, but it completely neglects the point that 2 of the 8 players who may go forward in the run of play are favored starters. And it's debatable if Ream will be the other CB at the start of the WC.Rudyjax said:shack009 said:This was not the case for several years up until last summer. I think there is a bit of overreaction because of the result last night and the way it looked most of the game. We were playing with none of our favored fullbacks and only two of our best midfielders+attackers, including probably our 4th or 5th best striker in the pool. Arfsten and Freeman probably won't even be second choice fullbacks by next summer. Freese won't be the keeper for the WC.Rudyjax said:akm91 said:
The inconsistency of calling fouls last night was mind boggling. You have no idea what to expect. Players (from both teams) were being whacked and no foul is given but someone falls down from a slight touch then it's an immediate foul. Ridiculous.
When has Concacaf ever had good officating?
You go into it expecting the referring to suck. US was outplayed and outclassed.
Our team is terrible unless we're playing countries with the population of DFW.
Mexico is better than they have been in the past 5ish years, but let's not act like our best players in the pool were playing last night and looked like garbage.
Our team is our team. That's the best team we could put out there.
Mexcio doesn't get an asterick by their championship because Pulisic, McKennie and Jedi weren't there.
Our team is crappy right now.
It will be better later when other players play.
This is such a good point and it's so unfortunate. We are in the middle of summer and baseball is at its lowest popularity, but you can't watch your local MLS team or even a national broadcast of an important match.oh no said:
In addition, a few years after USSF got rid of DA, MLS signed all their TV rights over to Apple TV. Our youth not only don't get much attention or guided structure from US soccer but our youth also can't even really watch domestic professional soccer on TV in this country.
All that to say, I think the popularity of the sport has been hemorrhaging with our youth for the past 5 years. We should always be able to field a decent top 11 in international soccer, but the quality and depth of our overall player pool is slowly going backwards and will continue to show for the next several years if not longer, IMO.
Less so, but possibly somewhat important, is Pulisic going to the Italian league (Paramount+) and not being on a PL side which appears on TV every now and then.
Hopefully the young Sullivan is all he's hyped up to be and can start another rejuvenation among the youth.
Milwaukees Best Light
Joined:
Nov 1, 2007
Posts:
18,268
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
oh no said:
drop from Dest to Freeman has to be close too
problem is, who else is there after Jedi and Dest at LB and RB? Afsten might be still be our second best LB, which means he'll be needed on the squad next summer.
Scally and Lund are the ones I think are 3 and 4 on the depth chart. Although we haven't seen much of Lund in quite a while. Lund is fast, that is about all I remember about him.
you can watch it in real time. he wasn't falling fast. he knew exactly what he was doing.Milwaukees Best Light said:
Good example of what I am talking about. Trying to guess intent from a still frame is generally not a great plan, and I personally believe intent should still be a significant part of the way a game is called.
I'd hate to bank growing the sport for our youth on a 15 year old being able to make the jump from MLS to Man City in three years when he turns 18.
Not saying that's going to be the be all end all, but couldn't hurt to have a young American playing on tv Sunday mornings when there's nothing else on.oh no said:
I'd hate to bank growing the sport for our youth on a 15 year old being able to make the jump from MLS to Man City in three years when he turns 18.
I thought this too, but I was told on this board that Scally was available yet not invited to camp for this tournament.... but I've seen enough of Freeman to be fairly certain I don't want to see more.Milwaukees Best Light said:oh no said:
drop from Dest to Freeman has to be close too
problem is, who else is there after Jedi and Dest at LB and RB? Afsten might be still be our second best LB, which means he'll be needed on the squad next summer.
Scally and Lund are the ones I think are 3 and 4 on the depth chart. Although we haven't seen much of Lund in quite a while. Lund is fast, that is about all I remember about him.
and Lund- was he not available or what? Is Lund fast? Arfsten seemed to make more attacking and overlapping runs at LB than anyone who has capped for USMNT in recent years not named Robinson.. Looked fast himself in those transition runs, but he was a liability defensively several times in this tournament.
I just think if USSF wasn't nearly bankrupt and had handled youth development better, we could have a half-dozen 15 year olds with MLS home-grown contract like Cavan has with Man City... but we just have Cavan.shack009 said:Not saying that's going to be the be all end all, but couldn't hurt to have a young American playing on tv Sunday mornings when there's nothing else on.oh no said:
I'd hate to bank growing the sport for our youth on a 15 year old being able to make the jump from MLS to Man City in three years when he turns 18.
Furlock Bones said:you can watch it in real time. he wasn't falling fast. he knew exactly what he was doing.Milwaukees Best Light said:
Good example of what I am talking about. Trying to guess intent from a still frame is generally not a great plan, and I personally believe intent should still be a significant part of the way a game is called.
He intentionally put his hand on the ball, in the penalty area? And he knew that the Guatamalan center and VAR would not call a penalty?
Kid has an IQ of 160 to process that that quickly.
Rudyjax said:
On the handball no handball,
What do our resident referees think?
To me he was falling and the ball rolled under his hand. It would be the same as if he had his arm braced and it rolled into it.
I dont think that's a penalty.
The rules should be amended and both situations should be indirect free kicks.
Trying to ascribe intent to a handball is just asking for trouble.Out in Left Field said:Rudyjax said:
On the handball no handball,
What do our resident referees think?
To me he was falling and the ball rolled under his hand. It would be the same as if he had his arm braced and it rolled into it.
I dont think that's a penalty.
The rules should be amended and both situations should be indirect free kicks.
you think he thought to himself in 1/10th of second "I think I don't want to put my hand on this ball but I'll go ahead and do it anyway in the penalty area in a final" and went ahead and did just that?akm91 said:
From this picture, it sure looks like the defender is watching the ball as he's falling and has opportunity not to impeded the ball with his hand.
Think it should've been a penalty.
The Law says it's handling if you deliberately move your arm towards a ball or if you make yourself unnaturally bigger and are hit by the ball.
It doesn't say it's not handling if you don't do those things. It just says that not every touch of the ball by an arm or hand is handling.
Unkel's statement is that you can defend the call in Law. The player didn't intentionally do this or make themselves bigger. By that standard you can say it's not handling.
This is a big gray area and I think either call can be made. I think that call is made in most European leagues and in CL.
It doesn't say it's not handling if you don't do those things. It just says that not every touch of the ball by an arm or hand is handling.
Unkel's statement is that you can defend the call in Law. The player didn't intentionally do this or make themselves bigger. By that standard you can say it's not handling.
This is a big gray area and I think either call can be made. I think that call is made in most European leagues and in CL.
US Youth soccer is so fractured right now.oh no said:
I guess this is the match thread instead of the team thread, but I am fairly convinced that our player pool was the strongest it's ever been a handful of years ago, which was when the Jurgen Klinsmann revamp of youth soccer development and the USSDA had players who went through a lot of the DA program beginning to peak.
USSF got rid of DA and essentially handed responsibility of youth development over to MLS academies in 2020. MLS academies have a profit model and designated non-American players at their forefront. They can also develop "home-grown" talent this not American and/or is eligible for other countries. No need for MLS clubs to prioritize development of home grown American talent. In addition, a few years after USSF got rid of DA, MLS signed all their TV rights over to Apple TV. Our youth not only don't get much attention or guided structure from US soccer but our youth also can't even really watch domestic professional soccer on TV in this country. Combine that with longer standing problems of the pay to play structure of clubs and the Title IX limitations for men to play collegiate soccer - boys/mens soccer is pretty much either professional track- MLS academy for the very few- or just for fun in an expensive club with little exposure and little incentive to stay in it vs other sports.
All that to say, I think the popularity of the sport has been hemorrhaging with our youth for the past 5 years. We should always be able to field a decent top 11 in international soccer, but the quality and depth of our overall player pool is slowly going backwards and will continue to show for the next several years if not longer, IMO.
as I stated earlier, if it had been called I don't think to many from Mexico would have been crying to loud. They probably all thought "Oh, mierda!!!" then realized they got away with one when nothing was called.Mathguy64 said:
The Law says it's handling if you deliberately move your arm towards a ball or if you make yourself unnaturally bigger and are hit by the ball.
It doesn't say it's not handling if you don't do those things. It just says that not every touch of the ball by an arm or hand is handling.
Unkel's statement is that you can defend the call in Law. The player didn't intentionally do this or make themselves bigger. By that standard you can say it's not handling.
This is a big gray area and I think either call can be made. I think that call is made in most European leagues and in CL.
Of course, we're all assuming the PK would have been executed properly.
IMHO USYSA had the primary goal of collecting the registration fee from every registered youth in every affiliated league in the US.
I would say exactly the same about USASA.
I wish it weren't the case but the money comes first.
I would say exactly the same about USASA.
I wish it weren't the case but the money comes first.
Look, baseball players change the hand they reach with when stealing bases or sliding home to avoid the tag. Is Sure it's hard to do but we're talking pro athletes here.agracer said:you think he thought to himself in 1/10th of second "I think I don't want to put my hand on this ball but I'll go ahead and do it anyway in the penalty area in a final" and went ahead and did just that?akm91 said:
From this picture, it sure looks like the defender is watching the ball as he's falling and has opportunity not to impeded the ball with his hand.
Think it should've been a penalty.
akm91 said:Look, baseball players change the hand they reach with when stealing bases or sliding home to avoid the tag. Is Sure it's hard to do but we're talking pro athletes here.agracer said:you think he thought to himself in 1/10th of second "I think I don't want to put my hand on this ball but I'll go ahead and do it anyway in the penalty area in a final" and went ahead and did just that?akm91 said:
From this picture, it sure looks like the defender is watching the ball as he's falling and has opportunity not to impeded the ball with his hand.
Think it should've been a penalty.
I have handling. If he were the GK you would deem he had control of the ball and it would be a foul to kick it from them.
It's handling in any game I do. But I'm not doing games for CONCACAF. I do think our players should have made more of a stink of it at the time. I don't know that would have mattered but going full CONCACAF and surrounding Escobar may have made the VAR think about it.
fig96 said:Trying to ascribe intent to a handball is just asking for trouble.Out in Left Field said:Rudyjax said:
On the handball no handball,
What do our resident referees think?
To me he was falling and the ball rolled under his hand. It would be the same as if he had his arm braced and it rolled into it.
I dont think that's a penalty.
The rules should be amended and both situations should be indirect free kicks.
The current laws already ascribe intent with things like plant hand, natural and unnatural positions.
Sure, but intent n knocking a ball down or putting your arm in its way is totally different than being on the ground in the way of the ball or, as in this case, falling on it.Out in Left Field said:fig96 said:Trying to ascribe intent to a handball is just asking for trouble.Out in Left Field said:Rudyjax said:
On the handball no handball,
What do our resident referees think?
To me he was falling and the ball rolled under his hand. It would be the same as if he had his arm braced and it rolled into it.
I dont think that's a penalty.
The rules should be amended and both situations should be indirect free kicks.
The current laws already ascribe intent with things like plant hand, natural and unnatural positions.
Problem is most all of us have seen hundreds of penalties awarded for so much less intent than this hombre putting his whole freaking mano on the balon de futbol
Featured Stories
See All
Five in Five: Texas A&M players not being talked about enough
by Billy Liucci
Healing defensive Achilles heels could help Aggies to go far in 2025
by Olin Buchanan
4:55
20h ago
3.6k
25 Players in 25 Days: #12 Rueben Owens II
by Olin Buchanan
8:24
14h ago
2.1k
Motivated Gavin Grahovac is returning from injury as a team leader
by Ryan Brauninger
Snippets from Day 7 of Texas A&M's fall practices
by Olin Buchanan
CedarParkAg2014
Five in Five: Texas A&M players not being talked about enough
in Billy Liucci's TexAgs Premium
5
HunterAggie
Phil Steele 2025 Forecast For A&M Looks Very Fair (and positive)
in Billy Liucci's TexAgs Premium
4