Quote:

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I've got real world stuff to handle today, but I'll be back to keep this going.

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Hope you come back with something better than post-ww2 reconstruction.

jaborch99 said:

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zoneag said:

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Y'all are arguing with ChatGPT. Every post by jaborch has the "it's not _____; it's ______" hallmark of AI. Every single post.

---

You better believe I'm using AI! When I jump into a discussion where I know in advance that I won't be able to keep up with the volume of replies I'm going to get, I lean on tools to keep up. I'm not outsourcing my brain; I'm feeding it my views, and letting it help me dig up and cite evidence like the polls and reports I've mentioned. Its just a way to keep up without ditching my day job or family. No shame in that. You're still discussing the subject with a real guy, not a bot. If you're hung up on the tech, that's your deal. I'm here for the discussion.

Hamas is a terrorist cancer, the "bombs forever" approach hasn't worked, and its time for a smarter approach - cut their funding, lean on Qatar, get aid to the innocent people, and push elections.

I've got real world stuff to handle today, but I'll be back to keep this going.

---

Try completing your own thoughts. When you type it out instead of letting something else do it you have to make sure it actually makes sense. You letting AI do it for you is letting you think you have good thoughts with facts to back it up instead of the circular reasoning you keep posting.

Bomb the hell out of both of them

Actually, using the AI so much explains a whole lot of the fundamental flaw in your argument.

Large Language Models probably aren't programmed with Palestinian thinking of "kill all the Jews is the ultimate priority"…at least not yet

Quote:

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Hamas is a terrorist cancer, the "bombs forever" approach hasn't worked, and its time for a smarter approach - cut their funding, lean on Qatar, get aid to the innocent people, and push elections.

---

Oh, is that it? Ok. Your AI is acting like "bombs forever" has been what has been happening instead of the decades of the world governments attempting to do just 1 of the "smarter approaches". It looks like the "bombs forever" approach is having more impact than the generations of trying to get the others to happen.

Trump said Hamas can end this by surrendering and turning over the hostages. What part of that statement is untrue? Oct 7 was a horrific terrorist act and Israel has been justified in their actions. Sure, there are atrocities in any war and those need to be punished and accounted for, but this is 100% Hamas fault.

jaborch99 said:

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Ag with kids said:

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jaborch99 said:

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Tom Fox said:

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It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.

If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.

---

What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.

You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.

If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.

---

The fact that you think anything even REMOTELY approaching "total war" occurred in Iraq and Afghanistan renders the rest of your views on this VERY suspect for lucidity...

We did limited police actions with the main goal being to "win the hearts and minds" and failed in both of those goals...because those will never work - they just make the enemy realize they can wait it out until their adversary gets tired of it or loses their stomach for it OR they win the propaganda war (which is what is happening in Gaza).

---

I never said Iraq and Afghanistan were "total war" like WWII. My point was they were brute-force disasters. Decades of bombing, thousands dead, cities wrecked, and what'd we get? ISIS in Iraq, Taliban back in Afghanistan. "Hearts and minds" was a flop, sure, but don't pretend it was just a polite police action. Millions displaced, whole neighborhoods leveled - that's not winning anyone over; it's breeding enemies.

Gaza's the same mess. You don't beat Hamas by crushing hope; you do it by cutting their Iran cash, leaning on Qatar, getting food to people so Hamas isn't their lifeline, and pushing elections to replace the psychos. Your "they'll wait it out" take just means more blood and another October 7. I want a plan that doesn't hand Hamas a megaphone.

---

I note that you've now moved the goalposts to include "like WWII"...

But, that doesn't mean your new, revised definition is anywhere NEAR correct. There was absolutely NOTHING that resembled "total war" in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Perhaps learn what terms mean before you start using them going forward.

jaborch99 said:

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sam callahan said:

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The critics of the IDF seem to think they could have rolled into Gaza with badges, handcuffs, and stun guns and rolled in with marked police cars and arrested Hamas members over the course of a week.

You never cite historical examples of a war that was executed to your standards.

---

That's a strawman, and you know it. I'm saying 20 months of flattening neighborhoods hasn't killed Hamas - it's kept them alive and active. Bombing civilians doesn't crush terror; it fuels it. Civilians are paying the price, not just Hamas.

You want a historical example of a "war" done right? It's not about good wars; it's about smart strategy. Post-WWII West Germany's reconstruction - Marshall Plan cash, elections, and dismantling Nazi ideology through economic and political reform - worked because it gave people a reason to move on, not a reason to fight. Gaza isn't Germany, but the principle holds. Give the people some kind of lifeline other than Hamas. That's not a fairy tale; it's geopolitics.

I'm generally anti-war, but I guess if a war has to be fought, "my standards" would include not breeding more terrorists while pretending it's progress. I want something that actually works.

---

Tell the people of Dresden, Nagasaki, and Hiroshima that...

Tom Fox said:

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They broke the Germans will to fight first and had total capitulation. That must always come first.

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And literally had the Emperor of Japan issue a proclamation to stop the killing of his people.

Until your AI recognizes that there is nothing that can be fairly or equitably negotiated with Hamas armed and in power in Gaza, then there is nothing else to discuss here. When Hamas is running for their lives from building to building and trying to blend in with civilians, they are not building and launching missiles towards Israel. Sounds like a win for Israel to me.

jaborch99 said:

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txags92 said:

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jaborch99 said:

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txags92 said:

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jaborch99 said:

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Tom Fox said:

---

It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.

If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.

---

What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.

You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.

If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.

---

Hamas hiding in civilian areas, building bases under hospitals and schools, holding on to hostages and refusing to lay down arms and surrender has destroyed residential areas and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Hamas can end the suffering tomorrow by surrendering and releasing the hostages. If Israel stops attacking tomorrow and leaves Hamas in power, they will not get their hostages back and the suffering will continue for decades because Hamas will keep teaching their kids to want to kill jews and will quickly go back to building weapons to attack Israel with. How many past cease fires with Hamas did they have? How many did Hamas break by launching rockets or attacking across the border? Why on earth do you keep thinking there is any value to Israel to be gained from a cease fire that leaves Hamas intact and in power?

---

Hamas is evil. I've been very consistent and blunt about that throughout this thread. They've trashed every ceasefire. No one's saying Israel should send them flowers. But 20 months of turning Gaza into a crater hasn't made Hamas quit. Why? Because bombs don't kill their pitch - they make it louder.

Yes ... Hamas steals aid, but Israel's blockade, strangling food and fuel, is why Oxfam is screaming about famine. IDF shooting at aid crowds? That's not Hamas's fault - that's a call that's killing civilians. Both sides are fueling this disaster.

I'm not pushing a lovey-dovey ceasefire. Hamas in power is a dealbreaker. So hit them where it hurts: cut Iran's money, freeze their accounts in Qatar, get food to people so Hamas isn't their lifeline, and back elections to kick them out. That's not trusting terrorists; it's making them useless. The "keep bombing" plan has been tried for 20 months and hasn't worked. Iraq & Afghanistan went decades and got us more terrorists. You want Israel to win? Try a plan that doesn't set up another 10/7.

---

And again you resort to stating this as fact. Show me factual evidence that IDF is deliberately targeting civilians seeking aid.

---

Check my recent posts.

---

Why don't you post it again? You have a gazillion recent posts.

Show me a video of IDF soldiers shooting at civilians seeking aid. And I don't mean videos of Palestinians hiding from gunfire, as that gunfire is more likely coming from hamas. I mean a video that shows IDF soldiers actually doing the shooting. If this was so widespread, then we would see plenty of videos like this all over the place already.

jaborch99 said:

---

zoneag said:

---

Y'all are arguing with ChatGPT. Every post by jaborch has the "it's not _____; it's ______" hallmark of AI. Every single post.

---

You better believe I'm using AI! When I jump into a discussion where I know in advance that I won't be able to keep up with the volume of replies I'm going to get, I lean on tools to keep up. I'm not outsourcing my brain; I'm feeding it my views, and letting it help me dig up and cite evidence like the polls and reports I've mentioned. Its just a way to keep up without ditching my day job or family. No shame in that. You're still discussing the subject with a real guy, not a bot. If you're hung up on the tech, that's your deal. I'm here for the discussion.

Hamas is a terrorist cancer, the "bombs forever" approach hasn't worked, and its time for a smarter approach - cut their funding, lean on Qatar, get aid to the innocent people, and push elections.

I've got real world stuff to handle today, but I'll be back to keep this going.

---

You obviously don't understand that AI will ALWAYS give you an answer, even if that answer is incorrect.

In my industry, we call it "hallucinations".

In fact, you've posted about that 2024 poll multiple times and yet that same website doesn't have polls that back up your assertions...

Like they always told us in school...

CHECK. YOUR. WORK...

sam callahan said:

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Actually, using the AI so much explains a whole lot of the fundamental flaw in your argument.

Large Language Models probably aren't programmed with Palestinian thinking of "kill all the Jews is the ultimate priority"…at least not yet

---

Considering who is feeding those models the data, I'm going to say it'll be closer to never...

aTmAg said:

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jaborch99 said:

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txags92 said:

---

jaborch99 said:

---

txags92 said:

---

jaborch99 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.

If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.

---

What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.

You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.

If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.

---

Hamas hiding in civilian areas, building bases under hospitals and schools, holding on to hostages and refusing to lay down arms and surrender has destroyed residential areas and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Hamas can end the suffering tomorrow by surrendering and releasing the hostages. If Israel stops attacking tomorrow and leaves Hamas in power, they will not get their hostages back and the suffering will continue for decades because Hamas will keep teaching their kids to want to kill jews and will quickly go back to building weapons to attack Israel with. How many past cease fires with Hamas did they have? How many did Hamas break by launching rockets or attacking across the border? Why on earth do you keep thinking there is any value to Israel to be gained from a cease fire that leaves Hamas intact and in power?

---

Hamas is evil. I've been very consistent and blunt about that throughout this thread. They've trashed every ceasefire. No one's saying Israel should send them flowers. But 20 months of turning Gaza into a crater hasn't made Hamas quit. Why? Because bombs don't kill their pitch - they make it louder.

Yes ... Hamas steals aid, but Israel's blockade, strangling food and fuel, is why Oxfam is screaming about famine. IDF shooting at aid crowds? That's not Hamas's fault - that's a call that's killing civilians. Both sides are fueling this disaster.

I'm not pushing a lovey-dovey ceasefire. Hamas in power is a dealbreaker. So hit them where it hurts: cut Iran's money, freeze their accounts in Qatar, get food to people so Hamas isn't their lifeline, and back elections to kick them out. That's not trusting terrorists; it's making them useless. The "keep bombing" plan has been tried for 20 months and hasn't worked. Iraq & Afghanistan went decades and got us more terrorists. You want Israel to win? Try a plan that doesn't set up another 10/7.

---

And again you resort to stating this as fact. Show me factual evidence that IDF is deliberately targeting civilians seeking aid.

---

Check my recent posts.

---

Why don't you post it again? You have a gazillion recent posts.

Show me a video of IDF soldiers shooting at civilians seeking aid. And I don't mean videos of Palestinians hiding from gunfire, as that gunfire is more likely coming from hamas. I mean a video that shows IDF soldiers actually doing the shooting. If this was so widespread, then we would see plenty of videos like this all over the place already.

---

His "recent post" was links discussing "gunfire reported near aid centers" and "IDF reportedly firing towards crowds" and "civilians hit by gunfire near aid convoys". That kind of thing. Nothing definitive and consistent with gun battles between IDF and Hamas trying to steal aid with civilians caught in the crossfire. IDF has stated they fire in the air towards the sea to back up crowds trying to stampede aid distribution areas, but nobody has any video of them firing at the crowds because that isn't what they are doing. He will post more links with vague descriptions of gunfire "near aid centers" from 3rd hand hearsay sources and claim that everybody is ignoring his "proof". Just ignore him. He is probably getting paid by the post for this nonsense.

jaborch99 said:

---

zoneag said:

---

Y'all are arguing with ChatGPT. Every post by jaborch has the "it's not _____; it's ______" hallmark of AI. Every single post.

---

You better believe I'm using AI! When I jump into a discussion where I know in advance that I won't be able to keep up with the volume of replies I'm going to get, I lean on tools to keep up. I'm not outsourcing my brain; I'm feeding it my views, and letting it help me dig up and cite evidence like the polls and reports I've mentioned. Its just a way to keep up without ditching my day job or family. No shame in that. You're still discussing the subject with a real guy, not a bot. If you're hung up on the tech, that's your deal. I'm here for the discussion.

Hamas is a terrorist cancer, the "bombs forever" approach hasn't worked, and its time for a smarter approach - cut their funding, lean on Qatar, get aid to the innocent people, and push elections.

I've got real world stuff to handle today, but I'll be back to keep this going.

---

I bet you do

Hamas is filled with evil liars.

BadMoonRisin said:

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jaborch99 said:

---

zoneag said:

---

Y'all are arguing with ChatGPT. Every post by jaborch has the "it's not _____; it's ______" hallmark of AI. Every single post.

---

You better believe I'm using AI! When I jump into a discussion where I know in advance that I won't be able to keep up with the volume of replies I'm going to get, I lean on tools to keep up. I'm not outsourcing my brain; I'm feeding it my views, and letting it help me dig up and cite evidence like the polls and reports I've mentioned. Its just a way to keep up without ditching my day job or family. No shame in that. You're still discussing the subject with a real guy, not a bot. If you're hung up on the tech, that's your deal. I'm here for the discussion.

Hamas is a terrorist cancer, the "bombs forever" approach hasn't worked, and its time for a smarter approach - cut their funding, lean on Qatar, get aid to the innocent people, and push elections.

I've got real world stuff to handle today, but I'll be back to keep this going.

---

I bet you do

---

It means he's now clocked out from his job on here. But, he'll be back tomorrow.

mjschiller said:

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Hamas is filled with evil liars.

---

True, but Palestinian women and children are legitimately caught in the crossfire here.

Not sure what the solution is here, but the forum 16 mantra of FAFO shouldn't apply to children no matter country of origin or religious background.

I'm constantly surprised that the same forum that calls out libs for their love of infanticide can rationalize what's going on in Gaza right now as morally justified.

I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

txags92 said:

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aTmAg said:

---

jaborch99 said:

---

txags92 said:

---

jaborch99 said:

---

txags92 said:

---

jaborch99 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.

If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.

---

What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.

You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.

If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.

---

Hamas hiding in civilian areas, building bases under hospitals and schools, holding on to hostages and refusing to lay down arms and surrender has destroyed residential areas and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Hamas can end the suffering tomorrow by surrendering and releasing the hostages. If Israel stops attacking tomorrow and leaves Hamas in power, they will not get their hostages back and the suffering will continue for decades because Hamas will keep teaching their kids to want to kill jews and will quickly go back to building weapons to attack Israel with. How many past cease fires with Hamas did they have? How many did Hamas break by launching rockets or attacking across the border? Why on earth do you keep thinking there is any value to Israel to be gained from a cease fire that leaves Hamas intact and in power?

---

Hamas is evil. I've been very consistent and blunt about that throughout this thread. They've trashed every ceasefire. No one's saying Israel should send them flowers. But 20 months of turning Gaza into a crater hasn't made Hamas quit. Why? Because bombs don't kill their pitch - they make it louder.

Yes ... Hamas steals aid, but Israel's blockade, strangling food and fuel, is why Oxfam is screaming about famine. IDF shooting at aid crowds? That's not Hamas's fault - that's a call that's killing civilians. Both sides are fueling this disaster.

I'm not pushing a lovey-dovey ceasefire. Hamas in power is a dealbreaker. So hit them where it hurts: cut Iran's money, freeze their accounts in Qatar, get food to people so Hamas isn't their lifeline, and back elections to kick them out. That's not trusting terrorists; it's making them useless. The "keep bombing" plan has been tried for 20 months and hasn't worked. Iraq & Afghanistan went decades and got us more terrorists. You want Israel to win? Try a plan that doesn't set up another 10/7.

---

And again you resort to stating this as fact. Show me factual evidence that IDF is deliberately targeting civilians seeking aid.

---

Check my recent posts.

---

Why don't you post it again? You have a gazillion recent posts.

Show me a video of IDF soldiers shooting at civilians seeking aid. And I don't mean videos of Palestinians hiding from gunfire, as that gunfire is more likely coming from hamas. I mean a video that shows IDF soldiers actually doing the shooting. If this was so widespread, then we would see plenty of videos like this all over the place already.

---

His "recent post" was links discussing "gunfire reported near aid centers" and "IDF reportedly firing towards crowds" and "civilians hit by gunfire near aid convoys". That kind of thing. Nothing definitive and consistent with gun battles between IDF and Hamas trying to steal aid with civilians caught in the crossfire. IDF has stated they fire in the air towards the sea to back up crowds trying to stampede aid distribution areas, but nobody has any video of them firing at the crowds because that isn't what they are doing. He will post more links with vague descriptions of gunfire "near aid centers" from 3rd hand hearsay sources and claim that everybody is ignoring his "proof". Just ignore him. He is probably getting paid by the post for this nonsense.

---

This is why I asked the question. I know that real evidence does not exist. It's no surprise that he has refused to answer it.

AggieEP said:

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mjschiller said:

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Hamas is filled with evil liars.

---

True, but Palestinian women and children are legitimately caught in the crossfire here.

Not sure what the solution is here, but the forum 16 mantra of FAFO shouldn't apply to children no matter country of origin or religious background.

I'm constantly surprised that the same forum that calls out libs for their love of infanticide can rationalize what's going on in Gaza right now as morally justified.

I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

---

We DO have compassion...

But, the ENTIRE REASON why all those children and women are suffering is because HAMAS is doing its best to ENSURE that those women and children are being killed.

So don't try to equate it to the abortion argument.

AggieEP said:

---

mjschiller said:

---

Hamas is filled with evil liars.

---

True, but Palestinian women and children are legitimately caught in the crossfire here.

Not sure what the solution is here, but the forum 16 mantra of FAFO shouldn't apply to children no matter country of origin or religious background.

I'm constantly surprised that the same forum that calls out libs for their love of infanticide can rationalize what's going on in Gaza right now as morally justified.

I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

---

Stop embarrassing yourself with naivete.

Many of those women pray that their children will become martyrs, and those children wish to be martyrs themselves.

They are taught at a very young age to blindly hate Jews. If a random Jew were to wander into Gaza, they would almost certainly be killed. And rather than protect that Jew, most Gazan civilians would celebrate their death.

If you want to really save lives, then it would be best to assume these women and children are lost causes. Like zombies in a zombie movie. When Hamas realizes that human shields no longer work, then they will no longer bother using them. They will know their only choice is surrender or death. Only then will the killing stop. The sooner that happens the better.

Attitudes like yours cause more death. And Hamas thanks you.

Women are just as treacherous as men. Perhaps more so. The vikings, for one group, understood this. Why is innocence presumed just because they're women?

aTmAg said:

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AggieEP said:

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mjschiller said:

---

Hamas is filled with evil liars.

---

True, but Palestinian women and children are legitimately caught in the crossfire here.

Not sure what the solution is here, but the forum 16 mantra of FAFO shouldn't apply to children no matter country of origin or religious background.

I'm constantly surprised that the same forum that calls out libs for their love of infanticide can rationalize what's going on in Gaza right now as morally justified.

I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

---

Stop embarrassing yourself with naivete.

Many of those women pray that their children will become martyrs, and those children wish to be martyrs themselves.

They are taught at a very young age to blindly hate Jews. If a random Jew were to wander into Gaza, they would almost certainly be killed. And rather than protect that Jew, most Gazan civilians would celebrate their death.

If you want to really save lives, then it would be best to assume these women and children are lost causes. Like zombies in a zombie movie. When Hamas realizes that human shields no longer work, then they will no longer bother using them. They will know their only choice is surrender or death. Only then will the killing stop. The sooner that happens the better.

Attitudes like yours cause more death. And Hamas thanks you.

---

Quoting so you can't edit your insane post equating Palestinian women and children to zombies. I'm assuming you're implying they are already "dead" so no issues with them starving to death.

You are dehumanizing children, just think about that for a moment. There's no evil in this world that would lead me to justify causing children to suffer. I hate Hamas, and wish they would lay down their arms, but I will never sacrifice children to achieve that goal.

BonfireNerd04 said:

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army01 said:

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4 said:

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So the people that allow Hamas to live among them and celebrate and cheer openly when Israelis are killed are starving as a result of their own decisions?

FAFO

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Yep...I remember all of those 3 year olds on October 7th jumping up and down cheering. They sure are finding out!

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Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. But given how well Hamas brainwashed its children, recruits them to child soldier training camps, and promotes a playground game called "Stab the Jews", it wouldn't surprise me at all if 3-year-olds cheered October 7.

The "innocent" children of Gaza are the modern Hitler Youth.

---

I always end up banned when I go down this path, but this thread is stacked with insane takes like the quoted one above that state directly that 3 year old Palestinians are somehow analogous to the Hitler youth. This same poster earlier stated that a complete eradication of all living people in Gaza was the only solution.

Ag with kids said:

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AggieEP said:

---

mjschiller said:

---

Hamas is filled with evil liars.

---

True, but Palestinian women and children are legitimately caught in the crossfire here.

Not sure what the solution is here, but the forum 16 mantra of FAFO shouldn't apply to children no matter country of origin or religious background.

I'm constantly surprised that the same forum that calls out libs for their love of infanticide can rationalize what's going on in Gaza right now as morally justified.

I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

---

We DO have compassion...

But, the ENTIRE REASON why all those children and women are suffering is because HAMAS is doing its best to ENSURE that those women and children are being killed.

So don't try to equate it to the abortion argument.

---

I agree Hamas deliberately exacerbates the suffering of their own people. No argument there.

My contention is with posters such as 4, and AgNerd, and OPAG that feel free to post opinions that show a total disregard for the value of the lives of Palestinian children.

There is a separate argument to be made about tactics in war, but in my mind there is NEVER an argument to be made that children's lives are valueless. Whether its abortion or the suffering of young Palestinians, I'm as consistent as they come in believing that children are innocent and deserve our compassion.

My compassion for the children is one of the reasons I want Hamas obliterated.

My realist self knows that unfortunately innocents will die in the process. It's also clear that 1) the number that will die is greatly increased by Hamas' actions and 2) stopping the war to save those lives would only result in prolonged death, destruction, and agony.


It sucks. But that is the position that Hamas and those that coddle them or are manipulated by them have put us in.

AggieEP said:

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aTmAg said:

---

AggieEP said:

---

mjschiller said:

---

Hamas is filled with evil liars.

---

True, but Palestinian women and children are legitimately caught in the crossfire here.

Not sure what the solution is here, but the forum 16 mantra of FAFO shouldn't apply to children no matter country of origin or religious background.

I'm constantly surprised that the same forum that calls out libs for their love of infanticide can rationalize what's going on in Gaza right now as morally justified.

I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

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Stop embarrassing yourself with naivete.

Many of those women pray that their children will become martyrs, and those children wish to be martyrs themselves.

They are taught at a very young age to blindly hate Jews. If a random Jew were to wander into Gaza, they would almost certainly be killed. And rather than protect that Jew, most Gazan civilians would celebrate their death.

If you want to really save lives, then it would be best to assume these women and children are lost causes. Like zombies in a zombie movie. When Hamas realizes that human shields no longer work, then they will no longer bother using them. They will know their only choice is surrender or death. Only then will the killing stop. The sooner that happens the better.

Attitudes like yours cause more death. And Hamas thanks you.

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Quoting so you can't edit your insane post equating Palestinian women and children to zombies. I'm assuming you're implying they are already "dead" so no issues with them starving to death.

You are dehumanizing children, just think about that for a moment. There's no evil in this world that would lead me to justify causing children to suffer. I hate Hamas, and wish they would lay down their arms, but I will never sacrifice children to achieve that goal.

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And yet you and your ilk are CAUSING them to suffer by making their deaths WORK for the cause of hamas.

If idiots stopped proclaiming "WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!?" then Hamas would stop killing children.

You guys are 2nd to Hamas in causing their deaths. Congratulations. At least you can pretend to care on the internet.

AggieEP said:

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Ag with kids said:

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AggieEP said:

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mjschiller said:

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Hamas is filled with evil liars.

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True, but Palestinian women and children are legitimately caught in the crossfire here.

Not sure what the solution is here, but the forum 16 mantra of FAFO shouldn't apply to children no matter country of origin or religious background.

I'm constantly surprised that the same forum that calls out libs for their love of infanticide can rationalize what's going on in Gaza right now as morally justified.

I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

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We DO have compassion...

But, the ENTIRE REASON why all those children and women are suffering is because HAMAS is doing its best to ENSURE that those women and children are being killed.

So don't try to equate it to the abortion argument.

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I agree Hamas deliberately exacerbates the suffering of their own people. No argument there.

My contention is with posters such as 4, and AgNerd, and OPAG that feel free to post opinions that show a total disregard for the value of the lives of Palestinian children.

There is a separate argument to be made about tactics in war, but in my mind there is NEVER an argument to be made that children's lives are valueless. Whether its abortion or the suffering of young Palestinians, I'm as consistent as they come in believing that children are innocent and deserve our compassion.

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Let me guess, you think the US was also "evil" for nuking Japan because "the children". Despite the fact that the nukes certainly killed far fewer children than a continuation of the war would have.

You don't actually care about children, you only care about appearing to care about children.

AggieEP said:

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mjschiller said:

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Hamas is filled with evil liars.

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True, but Palestinian women and children are legitimately caught in the crossfire here.

Not sure what the solution is here, but the forum 16 mantra of FAFO shouldn't apply to children no matter country of origin or religious background.

I'm constantly surprised that the same forum that calls out libs for their love of infanticide can rationalize what's going on in Gaza right now as morally justified.

I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

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Those female Palestinians are as culpable as the males. The kids? I dunno. Maybe I would care more if the Palestinians cared more.

Quote:

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I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

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I don't disagree with you, But here is the flaw in this thinking, The Hamas know that many in the west feel this way. They don't! They are more than willing to use and offer up the women and children as fodder for their cause! They truly believe that Allah will favor them.

So you have to understand the mind set they have.

Let me give you an example and see if I can make it real.

Let's say you are a grandfather and also a king or president of a people.

A sworn enemy who seeks your annihilation and has repeatedly sought to kill, kidnap your people. No matter what you do to try to satisfy and appease them they are never satisfied or appeased. They will only be satisfied by the total removal of you, your family and your people, preferably through death! This is Jihad by the way

Then one day they launch a massive attack and one of the homes they hit is one of your children's. and a son is killed a daughter is raped and then killed, of four grandchildren, 2 Gdaughters and 2 sons. The 2 Gdaughters are raped one is killed heinously the other kidnapped and basically made a sex slave at ten years of age. The two G son's are killed after being brutalized.

So you, as you should, respond. You launch a campaign against them. You have no choice in this matter actually. And then these same enemies put their own wives and children in front of you to stop you, you stop the operation!?!??!

This is what they do!

To make it more simple if come into your home, rape your wife, kill your kids and tear up your house and then you come to respond, I throw my kids and wife in front of you and say, or the police, while I set behind them with a rifel, "How could you attack me and hurt these innocent women and children!"

This is insane thinking! Truly, and if you stopped it would just encourage me to do it again, and again and again! What a defensive strategy!

How many times do I have to say it.

I work in the business of finding these guys in Hamas and removing them from the world. I've trained over 500 other military members to also be able to hunt these terrorists down. My "ilk" is the few on this board who has devoted their lives to ridding the world of the kind of people in Hamas.

But war has rules, rules we strongly believe in. At this point Israel has leveled Gaza and turned it into an uninhabitable wasteland. What comes next? Hamas has proven time and again they will hide in their holes shielded behind civilians hoping to run out the clock. So is Israel going to slaughter civilians in order to get to these final cowards in Hamas? That's a high price to pay and our current day military would never feel morally justified in causing disproportionate suffering in a civilian population like this.

I know Israel feels as if they've never been closer to actually finishing off Hamas, and that's likely what is driving their thinking right now. Persevere, make it across the finish line and rid ourselves of these guys. But I've fought this battle for 20 years. Destroy one group, and we'll have another resistance group rise up tomorrow. You fight terrorism long term by hitting it on both fronts, you kill or imprison the leaders, and you address the "legitimate" concerns of the population that turned to terrorism. In this case, the Palestinians have a legitimate (in their minds) territorial dispute with the Israelis that has been left unresolved since 1948. I don't agree with their methods of resistance at all, but like all terrorist movements, there is a legitimate claim out there that has motivated their use of violence. Until Israel figures out how to address this claim they will be perpetually fighting wars like these.

(Also, as mentioned no one else wants the Palestinians because they have been very treacherous when other Arab nations have opened their doors to them. Jordan and Lebanon learned tough lessons when they accepted them as refugees. There is no doubt that they've worn out much of their sympathy around the world. But they're still people and I cannot and will not ever support a policy of extermination.)

Ah.. so you are cashing in on this war. It makes total (and disgusting) sense that you would want it to last as long and be as bloody as possible. No wonder you take the position you take.

Notice how the US (and the entire west) has not won a war of note since we started adhering to these "rules we strongly believe in"? And that our wars last a damn long time and that enemies who ignore these rules defeat us anyway? We have idiotically ignored the obvious lessons of the past. Sherman taught it, Makinzie taught it, WW2 taught it, and many more. That once you engage in war, it is better for EVERYBODY for it to end as soon as possible and that total war is the best way to achieve that. For example, we likely killed more Vietnamese civilians in that war than Japanese civilians in WW2 despite using total war (including nukes) against Japan.

We (and Israel) have let liberalism infect our foreign policy and it has caused MORE death not less. Every time, Israel traded a bunch of Palestinians for a single Israeli hostage, they encouraged MORE hostage taking. If Israel let it's people arm themselves, told them "don't let them take you hostage, we will try to help, but fight to the death if necessary", and consider all hostages already dead, then the Palestinians would have not bothered to take hostages anymore. By so richly rewarding it, Israel encouraged a lot more of it. Likewise, when an enemy uses human shields, and killing those shields is unavoidable in achieving military goals, then consider them already dead. Consider it mercy because the Palestinians enjoy torturing them. Don't let the enemy even think that it caused you pause. Make sure that human shields do not work as shields at all. In fact, go after them HARDER. That is the key to ending this war quick and SAVING LIVES (that you pretend to care about).

And you never addressed the nukes. Did you think nuking Japan was wrong?

You are insane. No one that works CT wants it to continue forever. I joined up after 9/11 for patriotic reasons and to make a difference in the world. I worked long nights away from my family hunting these guys so they couldn't harm you and you call this work "disgusting." Please look at what you write before you post.

As for the question on the use of atomic weapons on Japan, there is a great book called Prompt and Utter Destruction that does a great job of discussing the legal and moral questions around the use of those weapons on civilian targets. If you want my personal opinion, I'm glad I'm not the one that had to make the call to use them. We vaporized infants and those two days are the two days with the most civilian deaths in the history of warfare. On the other hand, it ended a long and bloody war and brought our troops home without having to fight for the Japanese homeland. The weapons were also so frighteningly powerful that their use in that moment has given us 80 years without a war between states that have nuclear weapons. Basically, it's a complex issue that forces you into a moral dilemma.

Are you willing to kill innocent people, including children in order to win a war and save the lives of your own people?

That's a heavy question with deep moral implications, you obviously believe it to be a no brainer, but you should visit the museum in Hiroshima some day just to add some context on what the other side experienced that day.

I think the point is not that people do not have compassion. It's that this war will never end until Hamas is completely destroyed. Allowing vestiges of it to carry on in some "other state" will just allow them to continue with the terror.

In fact, the Israelites had the same problem in the Old Testament and some of what continues today is because they did not finish war as they were told to by God.