sam callahan said:

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The both sides are dirty here argument is like me saying "Well Sinaloa and this 17 year old suburbanan boy who sold a joint to his buddy both deal drugs, so that's a wash"

Yes. The IDF has misdeeds on its sheet. But you are crazy if you think there is widespread plunking of civilians for fun at food drop off sites. You have 20 year old grunts in the worlds most dangerous place and they have huge targets on their backs and the people they are trying to help hate them. I'd be quick on the trigger too.

Of course your ideas fail reality checks. You cant even tell who the bad guys are.

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I'm not saying Hamas and Israel are equally bad - Hamas is a terrorist cancer, using kids as shields and stealing aid to fund their death cult. No one's shedding tears for them. But acting like Israel's hands are clean when Haaretz (June 2025) reports IDF orders to fire on crowds near aid sites, or the UN counts 766 civilian deaths from IDF gunfire at aid points since May 2025, is just dodging reality. CNN has video of troops shooting at desperate people in Rafah. That's not "20-year-old grunts" being jumpy in a warzone - it's a pattern that's killing innocents, not just Hamas.

I'm not saying IDF is out there "plunking civilians for fun," but you don't need intent to rack up bodies. Reckless fire in a packed, starving place like Gaza gets the same result. Again, the famine warnings issued by Oxfam tie the blockade to starvation, not just Hamas's theft. Both sides are making this worse - Hamas by design, Israel by policy. That's not a wash; it's the truth.

My ideas fail reality checks? I'll say it again after 20 real months without victory. and the prior very real test cases of Iraq and Afghanistan. The "keep blasting" plan's the one failing.

txags92 said:

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jaborch99 said:

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txags92 said:

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jaborch99 said:

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Tom Fox said:

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It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.

If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.

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What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.

You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.

If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.

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Hamas hiding in civilian areas, building bases under hospitals and schools, holding on to hostages and refusing to lay down arms and surrender has destroyed residential areas and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Hamas can end the suffering tomorrow by surrendering and releasing the hostages. If Israel stops attacking tomorrow and leaves Hamas in power, they will not get their hostages back and the suffering will continue for decades because Hamas will keep teaching their kids to want to kill jews and will quickly go back to building weapons to attack Israel with. How many past cease fires with Hamas did they have? How many did Hamas break by launching rockets or attacking across the border? Why on earth do you keep thinking there is any value to Israel to be gained from a cease fire that leaves Hamas intact and in power?

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Hamas is evil. I've been very consistent and blunt about that throughout this thread. They've trashed every ceasefire. No one's saying Israel should send them flowers. But 20 months of turning Gaza into a crater hasn't made Hamas quit. Why? Because bombs don't kill their pitch - they make it louder.

Yes ... Hamas steals aid, but Israel's blockade, strangling food and fuel, is why Oxfam is screaming about famine. IDF shooting at aid crowds? That's not Hamas's fault - that's a call that's killing civilians. Both sides are fueling this disaster.

I'm not pushing a lovey-dovey ceasefire. Hamas in power is a dealbreaker. So hit them where it hurts: cut Iran's money, freeze their accounts in Qatar, get food to people so Hamas isn't their lifeline, and back elections to kick them out. That's not trusting terrorists; it's making them useless. The "keep bombing" plan has been tried for 20 months and hasn't worked. Iraq & Afghanistan went decades and got us more terrorists. You want Israel to win? Try a plan that doesn't set up another 10/7.

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And again you resort to stating this as fact. Show me factual evidence that IDF is deliberately targeting civilians seeking aid.

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Check my recent posts.

sam callahan said:

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Quote:

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I'm not pushing a lovey-dovey ceasefire. Hamas in power is a dealbreaker

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So who are you making this deal with?

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Good question! You don't make a deal with Hamas - they would rather die than play nice. The ceasefire is brokered through heavyweights like Egypt and Qatar, who successfully dragged Hamas to the table in both 2014 and 2021. They've got leverage - Qatar hosts Hamas's leaders and their bank accounts; Egypt controls Gaza's border. Lean on them to force Hamas to pause, tied to hard conditions: release hostages, stop rockets, or get their cash cut off. Iran's funding gets squeezed too - sanctions, not hugs.

It's not about trusting Hamas; it's about boxing them in while you get food to civilians so Hamas isn't their only hope, and push elections to replace them with leaders who aren't psychos. This is about making Hamas irrelevant without burying kids in rubble.

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It's not about trusting Hamas; it's about boxing them in while you get food to civilians so Hamas isn't their only hope, and push elections to replace them with leaders who aren't psychos.

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Again, that's wishful thinking. The only issue which unifies the residents of Gaza and the West Bank is opposition to Isreal. Any time you hold an election throughout Gaza or the West Bank, the candidates or parties that win will be those who promise to fight the Israelis the hardest, because that is the only issue that these people have in common.

Phatbob said:

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A two state solution with one of the states based on eliminating the other one will never work. The culture needs to die, not get its own state. Your proposed solutions have been tried for decades and gotten no where. If your assertion that Hamas' support has gone down to where they won't be in power for long, then the current Israeli strategy is working, and should be allowed to take its course to where the only option available to Gaza is to ditch Hamas completely and stop the culture of death.

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You keep hammering this "culture needs to die" line like it's a plan, but it's just grim hot air. Calling for a whole people's way of life to get wiped out - millions, half of them kids - isn't a strategy; it's a cop-out.

My solutions - cutting Iran's cash, freezing Qatar's accounts, getting aid to people so Hamas isn't their lifeline, pushing elections - haven't been "tried for decades." Oslo and Camp David collapsed because both sides, including Israel, didn't follow through. Letting Israel "take its course" just means more blood, more hate, and Hamas 2.0. You want the death cult gone? Give people a reason to ditch it, not a reason to fight.

93MarineHorn said:

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jaborch99 said:

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Phatbob said:

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jaborch99 said:

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Phatbob said:

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The point is that "giving peace a chance" is never going to work with a population that is more than 1/3 supportive of Hamas. I realize that it sure sucks for the other 2/3, but that is an internal problem, not something that can be solved by Israel "planting olive trees". There is a deep rooted problem in their culture, which is perpetuated by their current situation, but is not going to go away by ignoring it. It is not Israels, or anyone else's, job to fix another culture for them when they can't get along with anyone and they destroy their own future. Some cultures (not saying people, cultures) need to die because they are destructive. Trying to save it doesn't help anyone and is just enabling a death culture.

When there is that level of tolerance destructive behavior in their own neighborhoods, in their own culture, there is nothing anyone outside of it can do to fix it. When it is so destructive that it tries to destroy others, it needs to suffer the consequences of it so that it is either changed, or goes away completely. It looks like they haven't gone far enough yet to change internally, so the process needs to keep going.

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You're hung up on that 35-40% Hamas support like it's the whole story. Yes, it's bad - Hamas is a terrorist outfit, and that many people backing them is ugly. But saying their entire culture needs to "die" or get crushed isn't a plan. It's just dark, lazy nonsense. You're talking about millions of folks, half of them kids who didn't choose Hamas, like they're all one big evil blob.

This isn't about some inherent "death culture." Hamas didn't pop up because Palestinians are born bad - it's decades of war, blockades, and no hope that gave them a megaphone. I'll say it again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state deal. That's not a people begging for a fight; that's people desperate for something better. You don't fix a messed-up culture by bombing it to dust - that's how you make it worse. Look at Iraq or Afghanistan: blowing stuff up didn't kill bad ideas; it made more of them.

Israel doesn't have to play therapist, but they're not clean here either. The blockade is starving people, and IDF is apparently shooting at aid drops. That isn't hitting Hamas; it's screwing civilians and keeping the cycle going. If you want that Hamas support to drop, give people a reason to turn on them: get food and medicine in without arming terrorists, push for elections to swap out Hamas for leaders who aren't lunatics, and lean on Iran and Qatar to cut their money. That's not coddling - it's choking out Hamas' playbook.

"Let it burn" is just signing up for more blood, more hate, and another Hamas down the road. That's not tough. It's just giving up.

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You do know what culture is, right? By definition, if it is a culture that supports that level of death and destruction, then yes, it needs to die. If you want it to be bloodless, it has to be internal. That obviously isn't happening. No one can force it to be without there being dead civilians. Is it sad? yes. Is it necessary? yes. Something has to change, either one or the other has to die or change. When changing isn't an option, then dying is the only option available.

Your examples of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gaza up to this point are not backing up your claims. They were never "pounded into dust." We were selectively trying to change parts of a culture (government is part of that) through military action. If they actually had pounded them into dust, they would not be problems anymore.

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I do know what culture is, and yes, Hamas's death cult vibe is toxic. But saying the whole culture needs to "die" because of that? That's not a strategy; it's a tantrum. You're lumping millions, including kids who don't vote, into one evil box. Again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state solution, not jihad. That's not a culture begging for extinction - it's people stuck in a trap.

Iraq and Afghanistan weren't "pounded into dust"? Tell that to the millions displaced, the cities leveled, and the insurgencies that grew stronger. 20 years in Iraq got us ISIS; Afghanistan is back with the Taliban. Bombing doesn't kill bad ideas - it spreads them. You want change? Starve Hamas: cut their Iran cash, lean on Qatar, get aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and back elections to ditch the crazies. The "let it die" plan just means more blood and another Hamas. That's not winning - it's losing slow.

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How is Israel "losing" here? Palestinians need to be taught a lesson to never ELECT a terrorist group to run their gov't. Don't kid yourself, all Palestinians want Israel eradicated. They don't want a two state solution, they want dead Jews. There is no "getting along" with them. They need to keep paying and suffering for launching the Oct 7 attacks. They need to understand that making that kind of decision in the future is a BAD idea.

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When I say that Israel is "losing," I'm talking about strategy, not tanks or body counts. 20 months of bombing, and Hamas is still firing rockets, still holding hostages. That's not winning; it's a stalemate that's killing civilians and keeping Hamas's narrative alive.

"Teach Palestinians a lesson" for electing Hamas? Half of Gaza's population was under 10 when Hamas won in 2006. You're blaming kids for a vote they didn't cast? And "all Palestinians want dead Jews"? Straight-up wrong. Again, I'll point to the PCPSR polls from 2024 that show 60% of Gazans back a two-state solution, not genocide. Hamas's 35% support is ugly, but it's not "all." Painting millions as Jew-hating monsters is propaganda, not truth.

10/7 was Hamas's evil, not every Gazan's. "Making them pay" with blockades and bombs doesn't hurt Hamas; it hurts desperate people and fuels Hamas' recruiting. Iraq and Afghanistan "taught lessons" for decades and got us ISIS and Taliban 2.0. You want Hamas gone? Cut Iran's cash, pressure Qatar, get food to people so Hamas isn't their lifeline, push elections to replace the psychos. "Keep suffering" just means more blood, more hate, and another October 7.

Ag with kids said:

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jaborch99 said:

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Tom Fox said:

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It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.

If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.

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What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.

You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.

If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.

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The fact that you think anything even REMOTELY approaching "total war" occurred in Iraq and Afghanistan renders the rest of your views on this VERY suspect for lucidity...

We did limited police actions with the main goal being to "win the hearts and minds" and failed in both of those goals...because those will never work - they just make the enemy realize they can wait it out until their adversary gets tired of it or loses their stomach for it OR they win the propaganda war (which is what is happening in Gaza).

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I never said Iraq and Afghanistan were "total war" like WWII. My point was they were brute-force disasters. Decades of bombing, thousands dead, cities wrecked, and what'd we get? ISIS in Iraq, Taliban back in Afghanistan. "Hearts and minds" was a flop, sure, but don't pretend it was just a polite police action. Millions displaced, whole neighborhoods leveled - that's not winning anyone over; it's breeding enemies.

Gaza's the same mess. You don't beat Hamas by crushing hope; you do it by cutting their Iran cash, leaning on Qatar, getting food to people so Hamas isn't their lifeline, and pushing elections to replace the psychos. Your "they'll wait it out" take just means more blood and another October 7. I want a plan that doesn't hand Hamas a megaphone.

What percentage of Germans voted for the Nazis in the last election before Hitler became a dictator? 35%?

We didn't show restraint on Germany in 1945 because of that. We bombed their cities into rubble. And we won.

Where'd you get those talking points haha

They have so much food. There's nobody starving. They're dumping bags of flour to use the bags

jaborch99 said:

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Good question! You don't make a deal with Hamas - they would rather die than play nice. The ceasefire is brokered through heavyweights like Egypt and Qatar, who successfully dragged Hamas to the table in both 2014 and 2021. They've got leverage - Qatar hosts Hamas's leaders and their bank accounts; Egypt controls Gaza's border. Lean on them to force Hamas to pause, tied to hard conditions: release hostages, stop rockets, or get their cash cut off. Iran's funding gets squeezed too - sanctions, not hugs.

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LOL

And yet......those "heavyweights" couldn't keep 10/7 from happening.

Appeasement doesn't work with a brutish mind. Sheer, unadulterated violence does.

sam callahan said:

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The critics of the IDF seem to think they could have rolled into Gaza with badges, handcuffs, and stun guns and rolled in with marked police cars and arrested Hamas members over the course of a week.

You never cite historical examples of a war that was executed to your standards.

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That's a strawman, and you know it. I'm saying 20 months of flattening neighborhoods hasn't killed Hamas - it's kept them alive and active. Bombing civilians doesn't crush terror; it fuels it. Civilians are paying the price, not just Hamas.

You want a historical example of a "war" done right? It's not about good wars; it's about smart strategy. Post-WWII West Germany's reconstruction - Marshall Plan cash, elections, and dismantling Nazi ideology through economic and political reform - worked because it gave people a reason to move on, not a reason to fight. Gaza isn't Germany, but the principle holds. Give the people some kind of lifeline other than Hamas. That's not a fairy tale; it's geopolitics.

I'm generally anti-war, but I guess if a war has to be fought, "my standards" would include not breeding more terrorists while pretending it's progress. I want something that actually works.

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Lean on them to force Hamas to pause, tied to hard conditions: release hostages, stop rockets, or get their cash cut off. Iran's funding gets squeezed too - sanctions, not hugs.

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So still negotiating with Hamas through intermediaries - intermediaries who show no signs of wanting any cease-fire and actually are motivated for the conflict to continue - to put pressure on Hamas whose highest priority is eliminating Israel.

Your plan still relies on Hamas succumbing to reason. And we both agree that isn't happening.

How long has Iran been under sanctions? Sure, it hasn't seemed to soften them any, and I believe we are way past your 22-month magical window. And by your own tests, sanctions don't endear the Iranian people to the West, they just create more hatred.

And so far your response to these realities are "so you have a crystal ball" and "you can't just give up". Those same reactions can be applied to support of continued military action.

Sorry. But the only path I see with any hope is the destruction of Hamas by force. They will not stop for as long as they have any power to continue, and they will not, under any circumstances, willfully yield that power.

Realistically, that may mean it is unsolvable. In which case, I support Israel doing what it deems necessary to establish as much security as they can.

They broke the Germans will to fight first and had total capitulation. That must always come first.

Y'all are arguing with ChatGPT. Every post by jaborch has the "it's not _____; it's ______" hallmark of AI. Every single post.

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You want a historical example of a "war" done right? It's not about good wars; it's about smart strategy. Post-WWII West Germany's reconstruction - Marshall Plan cash, elections, and dismantling Nazi ideology through economic and political reform - worked because it gave people a reason to move on, not a reason to fight.

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Post WW2 was made possible by actual WW2. Something that took longer than 22 months and had 3:1 civilian death tolls, starvation, war crimes, friendly fire deaths, and widespread horrors. And that was without battling many of the tactics Hamas uses.

Reconstruction followed destruction.

If held to your standards, the allies never would have won.

Probably.

I'm not arguing to change his/its mind.

I'm testing my own positions and preconceptions. If the poster's best arguments are via AI, fine.

sam callahan said:

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You want a historical example of a "war" done right? It's not about good wars; it's about smart strategy. Post-WWII West Germany's reconstruction - Marshall Plan cash, elections, and dismantling Nazi ideology through economic and political reform - worked because it gave people a reason to move on, not a reason to fight.

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Post WW2 was made possible by actual WW2. Something that took longer than 22 months and had 3:1 civilian death tolls, starvation, war crimes, friendly fire deaths, and widespread horrors. And that was without battling many of the tactics Hamas uses.

Reconstruction followed destruction.

If held to your standards, the allies never would have won.

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Excellent point. The Allies literally bombed entire German cities to rubble and forced an unconditional surrender that included reconstruction and the abandonment of Nazi ideology.

Not just German cities - French and Belgian cities, too.

It sucked. They hated doing it. But they had the wisdom to know it had to be done and the fortitude to do it.

zoneag said:

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Y'all are arguing with ChatGPT. Every post by jaborch has the "it's not _____; it's ______" hallmark of AI. Every single post.

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And we're nuking that AI lib's arguments. Think of it like a scrimmage.

Did I miss the part of your plan where all Hamas leaders at any level must surrender and be subject to trial, Nuremberg style, for their brutal killings on Oct 7? That the only way there is no Hamas in your plan is these leaders are no longer available to dress themselves up under a different name and still end up running the show in Gaza? That if you do these first two things you'd have to have new Gazan leaders available for elections that after vetting you know had nothing to do with Hamas?

If you don't do the above you'll be putting the proverbial lipstick on a pig.

I am done with this argument. You just keep admitting that Hamas is a terrorist organization that thrives on the continued violence and will never voluntarily give up power or their weapons, then your solution is to bring in a bunch of 3rd parties that have no power over Hamas and get them to negotiate a cease fire where Hamas stays in power and doesn't disarm. There will be no peace in Gaza until Hamas is not part of the equation. The people of Gaza can make that happen, or the IDF will keep trying to make that happen, with the Gazans suffering along the way. It will be quicker if the Gazans make it happen, but Israel is determined to make it so whichever way it has to happen.

NE PA Ag said:

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If you don't do the above you'll be putting the proverbial lipstick on a pig.

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Which, IHIOGA, they absolutely enjoy.

sam callahan said:

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You want a historical example of a "war" done right? It's not about good wars; it's about smart strategy. Post-WWII West Germany's reconstruction - Marshall Plan cash, elections, and dismantling Nazi ideology through economic and political reform - worked because it gave people a reason to move on, not a reason to fight.

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Post WW2 was made possible by actual WW2. Something that took longer than 22 months and had 3:1 civilian death tolls, starvation, war crimes, friendly fire deaths, and widespread horrors. And that was without battling many of the tactics Hamas uses.

Reconstruction followed destruction.

If held to your standards, the allies never would have won.

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More to the point, the Allies forcibly relocated 14 million Germans. That's 20 Nakbas.

Why didn't the Germans start a "Prussian Liberation Organization" to attack Poland and Russia demanding their land back?

You're missing the point. People and culture are not the same. People can change their culture when it is necessary. When the culture is toxic, either it has to die with its people, or it has to die because of its people. When the people in the culture refuse to make it change, they will die with it. That isn't a tantrum, that is the entire history of civilizations

Zobel said:

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Sorry is boomer an insult? Boomers might take offense to that.

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Ah'm NOT a Boomah!!!!!

jaborch99 said:

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aTmAg said:

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jaborch99 said:

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dmart90 said:

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What precent of the people Gaza support Hamas and their tacticts?

I'll hang up and listen.

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You want a number? Polls from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) in 2024 show Hamas support in Gaza has dropped to around 35-40% for their tactics and governance, down from peaks of 60-70% post-October 7, 2023. Support for the October 7 attacks specifically has also tanked, sitting below 40% now. Meanwhile, over 60% of Gazans back a two-state solution or negotiations for peace. These aren't my feelingsthese are data points from credible sources on the ground. But let's not kid ourselves: Hamas still has a grip because desperation, fear, and a lack of viable alternatives keep people tethered to them. That doesn't mean every Gazan is chanting for jihad. Painting them all as Hamas fanboys is lazy and ignores the reality of a population trapped between a terrorist regime and a crushing military response. If you want to know why Hamas still has any support, look at the blockade, the bombs, and the lack of a political horizonthose are the fertilizers for extremism, not some inherent Palestinian bloodlust.

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Even if this was true. I don't care. Israel has every right to protect its citizens. Palestinians should have been more careful about who they elect and allow to keep in power. They are FAFO for that idiocy.

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"FAFO"? Cute bumper sticker, but it's a garbage take. Israel's got a right to protect its people - no one's arguing they should sit back and eat rockets. But blaming millions of Gazans for "electing" Hamas in 2006 - when half the population wasn't even old enough to vote - is straight-up lazy. Hamas rules by fear, not love. You think civilians can just "be more careful" and overthrow a terrorist regime while dodging airstrikes and starvation? Get real.

This isn't about denying Israel's security; it's about recognizing that flattening Gaza doesn't make Israel safer - it just creates more enemies. Look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya: collective punishment didn't end terror; it multiplied it. If you want Israel secure, demand a strategy that doesn't turn every kid in Gaza into a future militant. Your "they deserve it" schtick isn't tough - it's signing up for endless war.

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You've got the garbage take here. And the historically naive one.

We didn't "flatten" Iraq or Afghanistan. We had very restrictive ROE to try to change the "hearts and minds". You know who we did flatten? Germany and Japan. And guess which outcome was better? Guess which was was endless and which one merely ended?

An even better example are the Comanche. We tried to blame settlers, and give the Comanche what they wanted, etc. We even gave them big chunks of land and banned American troops from entering to try to appease them. Guess what happened? The Comanche used that land as a staging ground to raid and murder other tribes and American settlers. Then they would flee back to the "unoccupied" zone with their spoils. What finally ended the threat was us waking up to reality and going to war like Sherman in Georgia. The Comanche finally surrendered and the war ended. If we had woken up earlier, many lives would have been saved.

sam callahan said:

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We probably couldn't put enough pressure on Egypt to take refugees.

It's funny how you can acknowledge the shortcomings of diplomacy in that instance, when you can't in a situation with far less leverage and far greater challenges.

So both our plans are delusional. I'm just honest enough to admit it.

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Considering that Egypt built their OWN wall to keep the Palestinians out, I'd bet you're 1000% correct.

Agree, lets be consistent and apply the same thinking to Tel Aviv.

The flaw in your argument is very simple, These are religious fanatics. just like the Nazi's were.

Yes they were. The occult back ground of the Nazi's is well documented if you want to know about it. Here is 5 part documentary from the 90's.

"The Occult History of the Third Reich"
https://archive.org/details/theocculthistoryofthethirdreich


The Nazi were true believers in the idea that the "Aryans" came from a the Nordic God's (a different planet) and they were part of an interstellar war with races that came from other planets, the Jews being the most inferior and nefarious. The Aryan man cult idea did not come from Germany. They were however true believers in this. They believed in reincarnation. as well. They were also heavily allied with Islam (the Mufti of Jerusalem). That is another well documented but little known history! Kind of like our Barbary wars with these same Islamic religion fundamentalist (1801-15) who actually believe they have the right to enslave, rape, steal and kill in the name of ALLAH. WHO IS NOT THE SAME AS THE JEWISH/CHRISTIAN God of the Bible and Father of Jesus Christ. (No matter what Vatican II says!)

You simply cannot separate the Religion of Islam out of this, they have been zealots and have trained their children to be zealots. They have no problems sacrficing their own for the cause because they truly believe that they will get a great reward from Allah.
Demonic, based religious fanaticism that says you will receive a great reward for being a martyr for the faith or for killing an infidel, cannot be negotiated with at all.
Just like you could not separate Japan from Emperor worship. We basically dropped two A bombs on Japan over basically one thing, The empower had to publicly renounce his GOD HOOD! There were many fanatics that wanted to even then not surrender, Even thinking about kidnapping the Emperor. Again you can not negotiate with that, It is beyond our western pragmatic secular mind to understand this sort of thinking.
Just like Neville Chamberlain thought he could negotiate with Hitler, HE WAS WRONG and almost dead wrong for the UK. You cannot negotiate with these sort of people. They must renounce their religion. The must accept that Israel has a right to exist. The Hamas will not do either and neither will a quite a large portion of the population.

And I am not even going into the creation of Gaza and the West Bank, it was forced on Israel and it has been a disaster for both! They received a really nice place and proceeded to turn it in to a military base to attack Israel and have no problems killing any of their own who oppose them. That is the way of Islam for 1500 years now.

They must be brought to total unconditional surrender. THat is the only way I wish it was not true, but I know that it is, history does not lie.

jaborch99 said:

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Phatbob said:

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The point is that "giving peace a chance" is never going to work with a population that is more than 1/3 supportive of Hamas. I realize that it sure sucks for the other 2/3, but that is an internal problem, not something that can be solved by Israel "planting olive trees". There is a deep rooted problem in their culture, which is perpetuated by their current situation, but is not going to go away by ignoring it. It is not Israels, or anyone else's, job to fix another culture for them when they can't get along with anyone and they destroy their own future. Some cultures (not saying people, cultures) need to die because they are destructive. Trying to save it doesn't help anyone and is just enabling a death culture.

When there is that level of tolerance destructive behavior in their own neighborhoods, in their own culture, there is nothing anyone outside of it can do to fix it. When it is so destructive that it tries to destroy others, it needs to suffer the consequences of it so that it is either changed, or goes away completely. It looks like they haven't gone far enough yet to change internally, so the process needs to keep going.

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You're hung up on that 35-40% Hamas support like it's the whole story. Yes, it's bad - Hamas is a terrorist outfit, and that many people backing them is ugly. But saying their entire culture needs to "die" or get crushed isn't a plan. It's just dark, lazy nonsense. You're talking about millions of folks, half of them kids who didn't choose Hamas, like they're all one big evil blob.

This isn't about some inherent "death culture." Hamas didn't pop up because Palestinians are born bad - it's decades of war, blockades, and no hope that gave them a megaphone. I'll say it again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state deal. That's not a people begging for a fight; that's people desperate for something better. You don't fix a messed-up culture by bombing it to dust - that's how you make it worse. Look at Iraq or Afghanistan: blowing stuff up didn't kill bad ideas; it made more of them.

Israel doesn't have to play therapist, but they're not clean here either. The blockade is starving people, and IDF is apparently shooting at aid drops. That isn't hitting Hamas; it's screwing civilians and keeping the cycle going. If you want that Hamas support to drop, give people a reason to turn on them: get food and medicine in without arming terrorists, push for elections to swap out Hamas for leaders who aren't lunatics, and lean on Iran and Qatar to cut their money. That's not coddling - it's choking out Hamas' playbook.

"Let it burn" is just signing up for more blood, more hate, and another Hamas down the road. That's not tough. It's just giving up.

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Based on your posts, you would have been advocating that the US and Allies provide aid to the Germans, Italians, and Japanese WHILE WWII was occurring...because you don't want "innocent" people to suffer...even though many of those "innocent" people entirely support their government's actions...

BTW, of those 60% of Gazans that support a two-state solution, do they want ISRAEL to be one of those states?

jaborch99 said:

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sam callahan said:

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As a thought experiment, if a ceasefire were implemented today, what would Hamas' immediate response be?

If you answered anything other than "begin plotting how to provoke Israel," you missed it.

They know they can't beat Israel militarily. But they play naive Western sympathies like a fiddle. Their long campaign of eroding support for Israel has made steady progress.

You can make peace with someone who wants peace.

You can even make peace with someone who doesn't want peace by appealing to their higher priorities - their family, their property, their self-interests, their morality.

You can't make peace with someone who has no higher priority than destroying you. And here is a hint - if a man uses his own wife and children as shields, he isn't interested in peace.

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I have no doubt that Hamas would use a ceasefire to regroup and plot. They're terrorists. They've done it before, and 10/7 proved they're hell-bent on chaos. But you're missing the bigger picture: bombing Gaza for 20 months hasn't killed them off either. They're still shooting rockets, still holding hostages. Why? Because leveling neighborhoods doesn't kill their ideas - it makes martyrs.

The famine? Hamas steals aid, hoards it, sells it. Again, they're pure scum. But don't kid yourself: Israel's blockade is a big part of why Oxfam is screaming about starvation. IDF firing on aid crowds and killing civilians isn't just reported by one isolated person, either. That's a policy choice to screw the innocent. Both sides are dirty here.

You say you can't make peace with someone who wants you dead. Fair enough. So don't negotiate with Hamas - starve them out. Cut Iran's funding, freeze their cash in Qatar, push elections to get leaders who aren't suicidal. Get food to people so they don't see Hamas as their only shot. Your "wipe them out" plan sounds tough, but it's not working (20 months...Hamas still breathing). Compare that to wars like Iraq20 years, thousands of dead, and we got ISIS. You want better civilian-to-combatant ratios? Then stop cheering tactics that bury kids in rubble. My plan probably isn't perfect, but it's smarter than signing up for endless hate and bodies.

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You've already proven your second point wrong in this post...

Thanks for the help.

The reason no other country wants Palestinians, especially Arabic countries, is that they know Palestinians better than naive westerners do.

jaborch99 said:

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93MarineHorn said:

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jaborch99 said:

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sam callahan said:

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Quote:

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Egypt and Qatar have dragged Hamas to the table before - 2014, 2021

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That would be such a great point, if only Hamas didnt spend the subsequent years building up tunnels, plannng, and executing the biggest terrorist attack in Israel's history.

A point we should all agree on is the only way the people of Gaza stand a chance is for Hamas to be stripped of power. You think that can be done through diplomacy. I don't. Diplomacy requires some kind of shared values or common ground. We want peace and we have humanitarian concerns. Hamas wants neither. aTmAg thinks they care about their own lives, I don't even think that is true.

To act as if Israel has made no impact on Hamas is completely misleading. It hasnt been 22 months of no progress. I know Israel is famous for a 7 day war, but have you seen how long wars last?

You want a geopolitcal play - pressure and support Egypt to allow refugees out of Gaza. Let the innocents get out with as heavy of vetting and tracking as possible. Start working your rehabilitation efforts and deprogramming right away because that will be damn near impossible task so you better throw everything at it.

Then take off the IDF handcuffs and let them clean the place out.

Involve vetted Palestinians in the rebuild, particularly ones living in Israel that have culturally adapted.

All that sound impossible and astronomically expensive? Probably so.

So we can either do what we have been doing and that is micromanaging unstable ceasefires prolonging the suffering, growing the hate and repeating an endless cycle...or we let one side wipe out the other and grow the f up and accept the horrors of war that go along with that.

You'll like this interview. He says Israel should have stopped the war 6 months ago. Note he doesn't say it will be a longterm solution.

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You're not wrong - Hamas used past ceasefires to rearm and plan 10/7. They're a terrorist cancer, and nobody's shedding tears for their tunnels. But acting like Israel has made some grand dent in them after 20 months is a stretch. Hamas is still firing rockets, still holding hostages, still breathing. Why? Because bombing Gaza to rubble doesn't kill an ideologyit fuels it.

Your "let Egypt take refugees, then let the IDF loose" plan sounds like a geopolitical fanfic. Egypt isn't opening its borders wide - they've got their own problems and don't want Hamas's chaos spilling over. And "clean the place out"? You mean turn Gaza into a parking lot? That's not a strategy; it's a war crime dressed up as a solution. 60% of Gazans want a two-state solution, not endless jihad. You don't win by wiping them out - you win by giving them a reason to ditch Hamas.

Diplomacy isn't about holding hands with terrorists; it's about starving them. Squeeze Iran's cash flow, freeze Hamas's assets in Qatar, and back Palestinian elections to replace them with leaders who aren't suicidal. Pair that with controlled aid to feed people, not tunnels. It's not perfect, but it's smarter than your "unleash hell" plan, which just guarantees more hate, more wars, and more dead kids.

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Sorry Mr. AI guy, but you are blasting out assertions with nothing to back them up. Israel needs to continue the war until Hamas surrenders unconditionally or Israel believes they've done enough. There is nothing they can do to make Palestinians hate them more than they already do. Gaza started the war and they will continue to pay the price.

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You seem to have missed some of my previous posts. Consider this: 2024 PCPSR polls show 60% of Gazans want a two-state deal and Hamas support is at 35%. Oxfam has issued famine warnings, and Action on Armed Violence says IDF is firing at aid drops, killing civilians. That's not me making stuff up - that's the ground truth.

You think Palestinians can't hate more? Keep bombing schools and starving kids - hate grows fast. Gaza didn't "start the war"; Hamas did. Blaming every civilian for 10/7 is like blaming every American for a school shooter.

Unconditional surrender is a pipe dream. So choke them out: cut Iran's cash, pressure Qatar, get aid to folks so they don't lean on Hamas, and push elections to ditch them. Iraq, Afghanistan - endless war just breeds more bad guys. You want Israel safe? Stop betting on a strategy that's failing.

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Could you provide a link for your above assertion?

This 20 March 2024 PCPSR poll and then this July 2024 Poll don't seem to support that...

In fact, the July 2024 Poll states:

Quote:

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The two-state solution/terms for peace

• 40% of Palestinians support a two-state solution, a 7-point rise compared to 2022. More Palestinians support this than those who support either a single Palestinian state with limited rights for Jews (33%), or a single democratic state with equal rights for all (25%).

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zoneag said:

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Y'all are arguing with ChatGPT. Every post by jaborch has the "it's not _____; it's ______" hallmark of AI. Every single post.

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You better believe I'm using AI! When I jump into a discussion where I know in advance that I won't be able to keep up with the volume of replies I'm going to get, I lean on tools to keep up. I'm not outsourcing my brain; I'm feeding it my views, and letting it help me dig up and cite evidence like the polls and reports I've mentioned. Its just a way to keep up without ditching my day job or family. No shame in that. You're still discussing the subject with a real guy, not a bot. If you're hung up on the tech, that's your deal. I'm here for the discussion.

Hamas is a terrorist cancer, the "bombs forever" approach hasn't worked, and its time for a smarter approach - cut their funding, lean on Qatar, get aid to the innocent people, and push elections.

I've got real world stuff to handle today, but I'll be back to keep this going.

Tom Fox said:

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jaborch99 said:

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Tom Fox said:

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It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.

If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.

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What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.

You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.

If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.

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I went to Iraq 3 times. If you think we were engaged in total war, god help you. The last time you witnessed total war was in the 1940s.

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Yep.

He has ZERO concept about what "total war" means.

Fire bombing Dresden? Yep, total war.
Sherman's "March to the Sea"? Yep, total war.
Dropping nuclear bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Yep, total war.
Russia's deliberate attacks on Ukrainian civilians? Yep, total war


The police action bull**** we've done since WWII has just gotten a bunch of Americans killed because leadership hasn't understood how the media propaganda can be manipulated to persuade the populace to feel sympathy and then demand an end to hostilities.

Israel has gotten CLOSER to total war, but still tries to stay between the lines...