Here is an idea. Why don't you tell us what war was fought that meets the standards you want to hold Israel to?

sam callahan said:

---

Here is an idea. Why don't you tell us what war was fought that meets the standards you want to hold Israel to?

---

I can't address every tangential argument that comes at me, so I'm approaching this in an intentional and systematic way so that my line of reasoning doesn't get derailed. I'm in the process of building a logical argument, backed with evidence, one point at a time. Feel free to engage with the points and arguments I'm making .. or don't. But I'm doing this my way.

So tell me, do you think what Israel has done to the citizens of Gaza is deliberate? If not, how do you rationalize the data points that I mentioned?

You can't address it because it destroys your argument.

You are trying to argue this in la La land and that question is desperately trying to drag you into the real world - of which you want no part.

You need to answer Sam's question because it gives us a real world frame of reference for what you consider excessive force.

jaborch99 said:

---

OK ... We broadly agree with my Premise 1: "It is morally and legally wrong to deliberately harm or start civilians and use excessive force, causing unnecessary civilian deaths." I'm glad to know this, as I don't think I've ever met someone in person that would deny that premise at face value.

So as I suspected, our disagreement is on Premise 2: "Israel is deliberately harming and starving civilians. Israel is also using excessive force, causing unnecessary civilian deaths." There are several pieces to that, so I'll break it down into parts.

First, are Israel's actions deliberate? How about another logical argument?

Premise 2a: "Deliberate" means intentionally causing harm to civilians or civilian infrastructure with full awareness of the likely consequences, rather than incidental or accidental harm.

Premise 2b: Multiple credible investigations (Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Harvard researchers) provide evidence that:

• Israel conducted airstrikes on densely populated civilian areas (homes, hospitals, schools) with no verified military targets nearby, many at night to maximize casualties.(Example)
• Israel used large explosive weapons known to cause widespread damage, such as US-manufactured JDAM bombs. (Example)
• Israel issued evacuation orders forcing civilians into "safe zones" that were then struck repeatedly, showing knowledge and disregard for civilian safety. (Example)
• Israeli officials publicly admitted cutting off fuel, water, electricity, and aid was done to inflict hardship on the civilian population to bring pressure politically (e.g., hostage release). (Example)
• Official rhetoric from top leaders, including Prime Minister Netanyahu, invoked genocidal biblical commands, denied innocent civilians exist, and celebrated destruction. (Example)
• Systematic obstruction and denial of humanitarian aid persisted, worsening malnutrition, healthcare collapse, and deaths. (Source)

Conclusion:
Therefore, Israel's actions in Gaza are deliberate, constituting intentional harm to civilians, violating international humanitarian law, and amounting to war crimes and potentially genocidal acts.

I don't think anyone will disagree with 2a, as it is a pretty standard definition. The disagreement will come on 2b, which it why I provided citations as supporting evidence.

A couple of notes:

• I suspect that some of you will be tempted to simply attack the source ("Harvard is corrupt and full of libs!!) As someone who is pretty instinctively anti-establishmentarian, I would probably agree with many of those attacks. Feel free to make them if you want, but rejecting the argument on that basis alone is a logical fallacy. To argue against that point, you actually have to engage with the content of the report, not just the person/group who is presenting the content.
• I have only provided 6 points of support for 2b. Even one of them at least strongly hints at intent. Taken together, they present a pretty compelling case (IMHO). Furthermore, these are not the only pieces of supporting evidence that could be raised.
• Don't jump ahead! I'm only trying to establish that what Israel has done to the civilians is deliberate. I am not yet dealing with whether all civilians should be viewed as terrorists, whether Israel's response is excessive, etc.

---

Good Lord....just quit while you're behind

You're wasting valuable electrons with this silliness.

jaborch99 said:

---

sam callahan said:

---

Here is an idea. Why don't you tell us what war was fought that meets the standards you want to hold Israel to?

---

I can't address every tangential argument that comes at me, so I'm approaching this in an intentional and systematic way so that my line of reasoning doesn't get derailed. I'm in the process of building a logical argument, backed with evidence, one point at a time. Feel free to engage with the points and arguments I'm making .. or don't. But I'm doing this my way.

So tell me, do you think what Israel has done to the citizens of Gaza is deliberate? If not, how do you rationalize the data points that I mentioned?

---

How about Hamas has committed war crimes for decades, with combatants dressing as and hiding in and behind civilian infrastructure. Why is it a war crime? For the exact reason the civilians have been purposefully put in between the combatants... by Hamas. If you shoot at me and my family, but do it while hiding behind your kids... I'm going to try not to hit your kids, but I will be trying to take you out.

Your arguments are stale and ridiculous. A perfect war doesn't exist, no matter how much you demand it. Your "data points" are just spin and propaganda.

sam callahan said:

---

You can't address it because it destroys your argument.

You are trying to argue this in la La land and that question is desperately trying to drag you into the real world - of which you want no part.

---

OK.

Phatbob said:

---

jaborch99 said:

---

sam callahan said:

---

Here is an idea. Why don't you tell us what war was fought that meets the standards you want to hold Israel to?

---

I can't address every tangential argument that comes at me, so I'm approaching this in an intentional and systematic way so that my line of reasoning doesn't get derailed. I'm in the process of building a logical argument, backed with evidence, one point at a time. Feel free to engage with the points and arguments I'm making .. or don't. But I'm doing this my way.

So tell me, do you think what Israel has done to the citizens of Gaza is deliberate? If not, how do you rationalize the data points that I mentioned?

---

How about Hamas has committed war crimes for decades, with combatants dressing as and hiding in and behind civilian infrastructure. Why is it a war crime? For the exact reason the civilians have been purposefully put in between the combatants... by Hamas. If you shoot at me and my family, but do it while hiding behid your kids... I'm going to try not to hit your kids, but I will be trying to take you out.

Your arguments are stale and ridiculous. A perfect war doesn't exist, no matter how much you demand it. Your "data points" are just spin and propaganda.

---

Yes ... Hamas has committed war crimes. They're scum. That's not where we disagree. The key is in the last sentence of your first paragraph. "I'm going to try not to hit your kids." Do you think that has been Israel's approach? "I'm going to try not to hit your civilians." I know that's what Israel says (except when they say the opposite), but does the known evidence support the claim?

I gave 6 points of evidence that make a compelling case that Israel is not, in fact, taking this approach. Istead they used Hamas' war crimes as an excuse to commit their own war crimes. You called my data points "spin" and "propaganda" which I assume means you think they are either fabricated or deceptive in some way. Can you demonstrate that? Can you show any falsehood in any of them?

Dont care, the culture is a cancer and cannot be changed. They offer the world nothing

I hate to tell you this, but your "points" were not compelling. They were spin. You have come at this from the very beginning like it's a school essay and you've been assigned a view that you have to support and you've grabbed some random things to try to justify your feelings on it instead of letting the facts determine your view.

You keep dismissing the fact that your proposed approaches have failed for decades, and that the Gazan combination of political, military, and religious makeup has been internally constructed to make fighters and maximize civilian casualties for the purpose of removing Israel off the map.

It cannot be allowed to exist in such a way anymore and letting up now will just let it go back to the status quo.

This is less like a WW2 collateral damage scenario, and more like local SWAT blowing up a random family's home because a bank robber just ran inside.

Just as that town would be furious at SWAT, so to is much of the world at Israel for its bombs.

Israel is playing right into Hamas' hand. The civilian deaths are doing more harm to Israel than Hamas could ever do themselves. More and more countries are siding with Palestine.

Man, Hamas really miscalculated.

FobTies said:

---

This is less like a WW2 collateral damage scenario, and more like local SWAT blowing up a random family's home because a bank robber just ran inside.

Just as that town would be furious at SWAT, so to is much of the world at Israel for its bombs.

Israel is playing right into Hamas' hand. The civilian deaths are doing more harm to Israel than Hamas could ever do themselves. More and more countries are siding with Palestine.

---

That dont make no sense

The phone calls, texts, knocking, corridors and all that other stuff was just bull****, eh?

Well then because you did not read it. repost what I replied to you on page 10.

And I would say this to EP and others as well.

The attempt to separate the religious issue from the "territorial" issue is extremely flawed thinking:

Quote:

---

The flaw in your argument is very simple, These are religious fanatics. just like the Nazi's were.

Yes they were. The occult back ground of the Nazi's is well documented if you want to know about it. Here is a 4 part documentary from the 90's.

"The Occult History of the Third Reich"
https://archive.org/details/theocculthistoryofthethirdreich


The Nazi were true believers in the idea that the "Aryans" came from a the Nordic God's (a different planet) and they were part of an interstellar war with races that came from other planets, the Jews being the most inferior and nefarious. The Aryan man cult idea did not come from Germany. They were however true believers in this. They believed in reincarnation. as well. They were also heavily allied with Islam (the Mufti of Jerusalem). That is another well documented but little known history! Kind of like our Barbary wars with these same Islamic religion fundamentalist (1801-15) who actually believe they have the right to enslave, rape, steal and kill in the name of ALLAH. WHO IS NOT THE SAME AS THE JEWISH/CHRISTIAN God of the Bible and Father of Jesus Christ. (No matter what Vatican II says!)

You simply cannot separate the Religion of Islam out of this, they have been zealots and have trained their children to be zealots. They have no problems sacrficing their own for the cause because they truly believe that they will get a great reward from Allah.
Demonic, based religious fanaticism that says you will receive a great reward for being a martyr for the faith or for killing an infidel, cannot be negotiated with at all.
Just like you could not separate Japan from Emperor worship. We basically dropped two A bombs on Japan over basically one thing, The empower had to publicly renounce his GOD HOOD! There were many fanatics that wanted to even then not surrender, Even thinking about kidnapping the Emperor. Again you can not negotiate with that, It is beyond our western pragmatic secular mind to understand this sort of thinking.
Just like Neville Chamberlain thought he could negotiate with Hitler, HE WAS WRONG and almost dead wrong for the UK. You cannot negotiate with these sort of people. They must renounce their religion. The must accept that Israel has a right to exist. The Hamas will not do either and neither will a quite a large portion of the population.

And I am not even going into the creation of Gaza and the West Bank, it was forced on Israel and it has been a disaster for both! They received a really nice place and proceeded to turn it in to a military base to attack Israel and have no problems killing any of their own who oppose them. That is the way of Islam for 1500 years now.

They must be brought to total unconditional surrender. That is the only way, I wish it was not true, but I know that it is, history does not lie.

---

Phatbob said:

---

I hate to tell you this, but your "points" were not compelling. They were spin. You have come at this from the very beginning like it's a school essay and you've been assigned a view that you have to support and you've grabbed some random things to try to justify your feelings on it instead of letting the facts determine your view.

You keep dismissing the fact that your proposed approaches have failed for decades, and that the Gazan combination of political, military, and religious makeup has been internally constructed to make fighters and maximize civilian casualties for the purpose of removing Israel off the map.

It cannot be allowed to exist in such a way anymore and letting up now will just let it go back to the status quo.

---

In discussions like this, I think it is helpful to find common ground. I think Premise 1 gives us a broad basis to agree on. Having laid that foundation, it makes more sense to proceed step-by-step, building the argument brick-by-brick rather than trying to tackle every historical complexity and nuance at once. In my experience, this approach leads to a more productive and helpful conversation, so that's how I'm approaching it in this thread

Right now, I'm focusing on one foundational question: Are Israel's actions deliberate? Unfortunately, the responses thus far have only side-stepped that direct question and deflected to questions about other conflicts, the broader history, and the religious elements of it. All of these are important, but it is premature to discuss those until we've grounded the debate in the basics.

You don't find my evidence compelling ... fair enough. But what would be more helpful is if you explained why it doesn't hold up - what specifically do you find false or deceptive (which is what I presume you mean by "spin"). Simply calling it spin or propaganda isn't an argument. It doesn't address the substance of my claims or the documented cases I shared. If you believe those cases are incorrect or deceptive, I'd like to hear your reasoning and evidence.

Admitting Israel is deliberate doesn't mean you have to give up your support for them. Maybe it is deliberate but justified. Maybe it is deliberate but the citizens are legitimate targets. Those are separate and important questions. Right now, my only question is Do you think Israel's actions against the Gazan citizens is deliberate?

OPAG said:

---

Well then because you did not read it. repost what I replied to you on page 10.

And I would say this to EP and others as well.

The attempt to separate the religious issue from the "territorial" issue is extremely flawed thinking:

Quote:

---

The flaw in your argument is very simple, These are religious fanatics. just like the Nazi's were.

Yes they were. The occult back ground of the Nazi's is well documented if you want to know about it. Here is a 4 part documentary from the 90's.

"The Occult History of the Third Reich"
https://archive.org/details/theocculthistoryofthethirdreich


The Nazi were true believers in the idea that the "Aryans" came from a the Nordic God's (a different planet) and they were part of an interstellar war with races that came from other planets, the Jews being the most inferior and nefarious. The Aryan man cult idea did not come from Germany. They were however true believers in this. They believed in reincarnation. as well. They were also heavily allied with Islam (the Mufti of Jerusalem). That is another well documented but little known history! Kind of like our Barbary wars with these same Islamic religion fundamentalist (1801-15) who actually believe they have the right to enslave, rape, steal and kill in the name of ALLAH. WHO IS NOT THE SAME AS THE JEWISH/CHRISTIAN God of the Bible and Father of Jesus Christ. (No matter what Vatican II says!)

You simply cannot separate the Religion of Islam out of this, they have been zealots and have trained their children to be zealots. They have no problems sacrficing their own for the cause because they truly believe that they will get a great reward from Allah.
Demonic, based religious fanaticism that says you will receive a great reward for being a martyr for the faith or for killing an infidel, cannot be negotiated with at all.
Just like you could not separate Japan from Emperor worship. We basically dropped two A bombs on Japan over basically one thing, The empower had to publicly renounce his GOD HOOD! There were many fanatics that wanted to even then not surrender, Even thinking about kidnapping the Emperor. Again you can not negotiate with that, It is beyond our western pragmatic secular mind to understand this sort of thinking.
Just like Neville Chamberlain thought he could negotiate with Hitler, HE WAS WRONG and almost dead wrong for the UK. You cannot negotiate with these sort of people. They must renounce their religion. The must accept that Israel has a right to exist. The Hamas will not do either and neither will a quite a large portion of the population.

And I am not even going into the creation of Gaza and the West Bank, it was forced on Israel and it has been a disaster for both! They received a really nice place and proceeded to turn it in to a military base to attack Israel and have no problems killing any of their own who oppose them. That is the way of Islam for 1500 years now.

They must be brought to total unconditional surrender. That is the only way, I wish it was not true, but I know that it is, history does not lie.

---

---

So is it your position that Israel's actions ARE deliberate, but are justified because the citizens are Muslim zealots, making them indistiguishable from terrorists and therefore legitimate targets?

jaborch99 said:

---

Phatbob said:

---

I hate to tell you this, but your "points" were not compelling. They were spin. You have come at this from the very beginning like it's a school essay and you've been assigned a view that you have to support and you've grabbed some random things to try to justify your feelings on it instead of letting the facts determine your view.

You keep dismissing the fact that your proposed approaches have failed for decades, and that the Gazan combination of political, military, and religious makeup has been internally constructed to make fighters and maximize civilian casualties for the purpose of removing Israel off the map.

It cannot be allowed to exist in such a way anymore and letting up now will just let it go back to the status quo.

---

In discussions like this, I think it is helpful to find common ground. I think Premise 1 gives us a broad basis to agree on. Having laid that foundation, it makes more sense to proceed step-by-step, building the argument brick-by-brick rather than trying to tackle every historical complexity and nuance at once. In my experience, this approach leads to a more productive and helpful conversation, so that's how I'm approaching it in this thread

Right now, I'm focusing on one foundational question: Are Israel's actions deliberate? Unfortunately, the responses thus far have only side-stepped that direct question and deflected to questions about other conflicts, the broader history, and the religious elements of it. All of these are important, but it is premature to discuss those until we've grounded the debate in the basics.

You don't find my evidence compelling ... fair enough. But what would be more helpful is if you explained why it doesn't hold up - what specifically do you find false or deceptive (which is what I presume you mean by "spin"). Simply calling it spin or propaganda isn't an argument. It doesn't address the substance of my claims or the documented cases I shared. If you believe those cases are incorrect or deceptive, I'd like to hear your reasoning and evidence.

Admitting Israel is deliberate doesn't mean you have to give up your support for them. Maybe it is deliberate but justified. Maybe it is deliberate but the citizens are legitimate targets. Those are separate and important questions. Right now, my only question is Do you think Israel's actions against the Gazan citizens is deliberate?

---

You are going a long way to try to get a single word, which usually means your argument is semantic and you are working your way to get someone to say "Israel is deliberately killing civilians", because that is a simplistic way of describing war crimes. How about you admit that Gazans are "deliberately" putting civilians, including children, between Hamas and Israel for the purpose of causing civilian casualties.to get people who are simplistically looking at one thing... civilian casualties, to help them pressure Israel to give them what they want.

Do you think Gazans use of civilians, specifically children, as shields is deliberate?

FobTies said:

---

This is less like a WW2 collateral damage scenario, and more like local SWAT blowing up a random family's home because a bank robber just ran inside.

Just as that town would be furious at SWAT, so to is much of the world at Israel for its bombs.

Israel is playing right into Hamas' hand. The civilian deaths are doing more harm to Israel than Hamas could ever do themselves. More and more countries are siding with Palestine.

---

And I'm sure Israel ... the ones trying to remain alive against bloodthirsty, murderous zealots ... give a single, solitary **** . They're not pantywaists like so many seem to be, nowadays. They can't afford to be.

Quote:

---

So is it your position that Israel's actions ARE deliberate, but are justified because the citizens are Muslim zealots, making them indistinguishable from terrorists and therefore legitimate targets?

---

No I would call this you trying to manipulate my words to fit into what you want it to mean.

And I would further challenge your putting words in my mouth by using the general term Muslims

There are all kinds of Muslims, like their are all kinds of "Christians", The Hamas, and Gaza and the Palestinian's in general are specific type of Jihadist Islamist who take the most extreme hard core tennats of Islam very seriously.

Finally as you did not read my other response, I will post that here as well

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

---

I don't disagree with you, But here is the flaw in this thinking, The Hamas know that many in the west feel this way. They don't! They are more than willing to use and offer up the women and children as fodder for their cause! They truly believe that Allah will favor them.

So you have to understand the mind set they have.

Let me give you an example and see if I can make it real.

Let's say you are a grandfather and also a king or president of a people.

A sworn enemy who seeks your annihilation and has repeatedly sought to kill, kidnap your people. No matter what you do to try to satisfy and appease them they are never satisfied or appeased. They will only be satisfied by the total removal of you, your family and your people, preferably through death! This is Jihad by the way

Then one day they launch a massive attack and one of the homes they hit is one of your children's. and a son is killed a daughter is raped and then killed, of four grandchildren, 2 Gdaughters and 2 sons. The 2 Gdaughters are raped one is killed heinously the other kidnapped and basically made a sex slave at ten years of age. The two G son's are killed after being brutalized.

So you, as you should, respond. You launch a campaign against them. You have no choice in this matter actually. And then these same enemies put their own wives and children in front of you to stop you, you stop the operation!?!??!

This is what they do!

To make it more simple if come into your home, rape your wife, kill your kids and tear up your house and then you come to respond, I throw my kids and wife in front of you and say, or the police, while I set behind them with a rifel, "How could you attack me and hurt these innocent women and children!"

This is insane thinking! Truly, and if you stopped it would just encourage me to do it again, and again and again! What a defensive strategy!

---

jaborch99 said:

---

Phatbob said:

---

I hate to tell you this, but your "points" were not compelling. They were spin. You have come at this from the very beginning like it's a school essay and you've been assigned a view that you have to support and you've grabbed some random things to try to justify your feelings on it instead of letting the facts determine your view.

You keep dismissing the fact that your proposed approaches have failed for decades, and that the Gazan combination of political, military, and religious makeup has been internally constructed to make fighters and maximize civilian casualties for the purpose of removing Israel off the map.

It cannot be allowed to exist in such a way anymore and letting up now will just let it go back to the status quo.

---

In discussions like this, I think it is helpful to find common ground. I think Premise 1 gives us a broad basis to agree on. Having laid that foundation, it makes more sense to proceed step-by-step, building the argument brick-by-brick rather than trying to tackle every historical complexity and nuance at once. In my experience, this approach leads to a more productive and helpful conversation, so that's how I'm approaching it in this thread

Right now, I'm focusing on one foundational question: Are Israel's actions deliberate? Unfortunately, the responses thus far have only side-stepped that direct question and deflected to questions about other conflicts, the broader history, and the religious elements of it. All of these are important, but it is premature to discuss those until we've grounded the debate in the basics.

You don't find my evidence compelling ... fair enough. But what would be more helpful is if you explained why it doesn't hold up - what specifically do you find false or deceptive (which is what I presume you mean by "spin"). Simply calling it spin or propaganda isn't an argument. It doesn't address the substance of my claims or the documented cases I shared. If you believe those cases are incorrect or deceptive, I'd like to hear your reasoning and evidence.

Admitting Israel is deliberate doesn't mean you have to give up your support for them. Maybe it is deliberate but justified. Maybe it is deliberate but the citizens are legitimate targets. Those are separate and important questions. Right now, my only question is Do you think Israel's actions against the Gazan citizens is deliberate?

---

We don't have agreement on Premise 1 until we adequately understand what you consider excessive hence Sam's question about which previous military conflicts did the US act excessively, if any.

Phatbob said:

---

jaborch99 said:

---

Phatbob said:

---

I hate to tell you this, but your "points" were not compelling. They were spin. You have come at this from the very beginning like it's a school essay and you've been assigned a view that you have to support and you've grabbed some random things to try to justify your feelings on it instead of letting the facts determine your view.

You keep dismissing the fact that your proposed approaches have failed for decades, and that the Gazan combination of political, military, and religious makeup has been internally constructed to make fighters and maximize civilian casualties for the purpose of removing Israel off the map.

It cannot be allowed to exist in such a way anymore and letting up now will just let it go back to the status quo.

---

In discussions like this, I think it is helpful to find common ground. I think Premise 1 gives us a broad basis to agree on. Having laid that foundation, it makes more sense to proceed step-by-step, building the argument brick-by-brick rather than trying to tackle every historical complexity and nuance at once. In my experience, this approach leads to a more productive and helpful conversation, so that's how I'm approaching it in this thread

Right now, I'm focusing on one foundational question: Are Israel's actions deliberate? Unfortunately, the responses thus far have only side-stepped that direct question and deflected to questions about other conflicts, the broader history, and the religious elements of it. All of these are important, but it is premature to discuss those until we've grounded the debate in the basics.

You don't find my evidence compelling ... fair enough. But what would be more helpful is if you explained why it doesn't hold up - what specifically do you find false or deceptive (which is what I presume you mean by "spin"). Simply calling it spin or propaganda isn't an argument. It doesn't address the substance of my claims or the documented cases I shared. If you believe those cases are incorrect or deceptive, I'd like to hear your reasoning and evidence.

Admitting Israel is deliberate doesn't mean you have to give up your support for them. Maybe it is deliberate but justified. Maybe it is deliberate but the citizens are legitimate targets. Those are separate and important questions. Right now, my only question is Do you think Israel's actions against the Gazan citizens is deliberate?

---

You are going a long way to try to get a single word, which usually means your argument is semantic and you are working your way to get someone to say "Israel is deliberately killing civilians", because that is a simplistic way of describing war crimes. How about you admit that Gazans are "deliberately" putting civilians, including children, between Hamas and Israel for the purpose of causing civilian casualties.to get people who are simplistically looking at one thing... civilian casualties, to help them pressure Israel to give them what they want.

Do you think Gazans use of civilians, specifically children, as shields is deliberate?

---

Yes, as long as you are only talking about a specific subset of Gazans - Hamas. Their use of human shields is deliberate and despicable.

I'm not trying to cast any kind of semantic trap. I'm trying to get you to clearly state your position. If you don't think it is deliberate, then we can debate that! IF you do think it is deliberate, but is justified for some other reason, we can move on to that. I'm just trying to nail down the specifics of our disagreement.

Based on your comment, I think your answer is something like this: "No. Israel's actions against civilians is not deliberate. It is accidental or collateral because Hamas was using human shields and there was no other way to kill Hamas." Do I understand you correctly?

I think youre overstating how much agreement you have here on your first point.

Even that is too simplistic, but yes. But it isn't just Hamas, it is a death cult of some who are willing to put themselves and their children in line for martyrdom in order to cleanse the land of Jews. That's not a kind of person that can be negotiated with. That is not all of the people of Gaza, but it is enough to be like an organ riddled with cancer. There is no way to remove only the cancer cells, no matter how careful and skilled the surgeon is. Right now you're like someone outside in the waiting room criticizing the doctors for every healthy cell they take out, even though the area is already problematic and there's a good chance those cells will be cancerous given enought time. The answer is to solve the underlying problem. Remove any doubt that Israel will ever go away and make it clear that being in the death cult will only cause you and your loved ones death and destruction.

It will be hard for them to give up, but they have to if they want to live a life outside of a war zone.

It sounds like you're on the Israel is committing genocide against the people of Gaza train.

You been watching BBC news lately? They've been running tear jerker stories about children being killed in Gaza. Problem is, they all rely on Gazan accounts - none of which any of us should believe.

Every expert analysis I've read says Israel has changed the balance of power in the Middle East. Everyone now understands they have the most powerful and effective military in the region.

If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would have been able to complete that mission by now. But no, they tell people to move before launching an attack - much to their own detriment. Hamas hides among the people like cowards and puts everyone at risk.

For all the pain caused by Hamas - why is it the Gazans never turn them over? Show the world they don't support the Hamas cause?

Sounds like our Hamas supporter has his poll numbers all wrong.

https://legalinsurrection.com/2025/08/poll-most-palestinians-say-no-to-peace-if-it-means-weakening-hama/

Quote:

---

According to the latest public opinion poll from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, 64% of Gazans and 85% of West Bank residents oppose disarming Hamas. A staggering 73% overall reject the idea that the war would end even if Hamas released Israeli hostages. In other words, most Palestinians appear more committed to the continuation of armed resistance than to securing an immediate ceasefire.

---

jaborch99 said:

---

Phatbob said:

---

I hate to tell you this, but your "points" were not compelling. They were spin. You have come at this from the very beginning like it's a school essay and you've been assigned a view that you have to support and you've grabbed some random things to try to justify your feelings on it instead of letting the facts determine your view.

You keep dismissing the fact that your proposed approaches have failed for decades, and that the Gazan combination of political, military, and religious makeup has been internally constructed to make fighters and maximize civilian casualties for the purpose of removing Israel off the map.

It cannot be allowed to exist in such a way anymore and letting up now will just let it go back to the status quo.

---

In discussions like this, I think it is helpful to find common ground. I think Premise 1 gives us a broad basis to agree on. Having laid that foundation, it makes more sense to proceed step-by-step, building the argument brick-by-brick rather than trying to tackle every historical complexity and nuance at once. In my experience, this approach leads to a more productive and helpful conversation, so that's how I'm approaching it in this thread

Right now, I'm focusing on one foundational question: Are Israel's actions deliberate? Unfortunately, the responses thus far have only side-stepped that direct question and deflected to questions about other conflicts, the broader history, and the religious elements of it. All of these are important, but it is premature to discuss those until we've grounded the debate in the basics.

You don't find my evidence compelling ... fair enough. But what would be more helpful is if you explained why it doesn't hold up - what specifically do you find false or deceptive (which is what I presume you mean by "spin"). Simply calling it spin or propaganda isn't an argument. It doesn't address the substance of my claims or the documented cases I shared. If you believe those cases are incorrect or deceptive, I'd like to hear your reasoning and evidence.

Admitting Israel is deliberate doesn't mean you have to give up your support for them. Maybe it is deliberate but justified. Maybe it is deliberate but the citizens are legitimate targets. Those are separate and important questions. Right now, my only question is Do you think Israel's actions against the Gazan citizens is deliberate?

---

The Gazan citizens that are Hamas? YES

The Gazan citizens that are not Hamas? NO.

dmart90 said:

---

It sounds like you're on the Israel is committing genocide against the people of Gaza train.

You been watching BBC news lately? They've been running tear jerker stories about children being killed in Gaza. Problem is, they all rely on Gazan accounts - none of which any of us should believe.

Every expert analysis I've read says Israel has changed the balance of power in the Middle East. Everyone now understands they have the most powerful and effective military in the region.

If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would have been able to complete that mission by now. But no, they tell people to move before launching an attack - much to their own detriment. Hamas hides among the people like cowards and puts everyone at risk.

For all the pain caused by Hamas - why is it the Gazans never turn them over? Show the world they don't support the Hamas cause?

---

Because a good many of them DO support the Hamas cause unfortunately.

OPAG said:

---

Quote:

---

So is it your position that Israel's actions ARE deliberate, but are justified because the citizens are Muslim zealots, making them indistinguishable from terrorists and therefore legitimate targets?

---

No I would call this you trying to manipulate my words to fit into what you want it to mean.

And I would further challenge your putting words in my mouth by using the general term Muslims

There are all kinds of Muslims, like their are all kinds of "Christians", The Hamas, and Gaza and the Palestinian's in general are specific type of Jihadist Islamist who take the most extreme hard core tennats of Islam very seriously.

Finally as you did not read my other response, I will post that here as well

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I don't know why we can't all have compassion for the suffering of innocent children while praying for Hamas to do the right thing and lay down their weapons and leave Gaza forever.

---

I don't disagree with you, But here is the flaw in this thinking, The Hamas know that many in the west feel this way. They don't! They are more than willing to use and offer up the women and children as fodder for their cause! They truly believe that Allah will favor them.

So you have to understand the mind set they have.

Let me give you an example and see if I can make it real.

Let's say you are a grandfather and also a king or president of a people.

A sworn enemy who seeks your annihilation and has repeatedly sought to kill, kidnap your people. No matter what you do to try to satisfy and appease them they are never satisfied or appeased. They will only be satisfied by the total removal of you, your family and your people, preferably through death! This is Jihad by the way

Then one day they launch a massive attack and one of the homes they hit is one of your children's. and a son is killed a daughter is raped and then killed, of four grandchildren, 2 Gdaughters and 2 sons. The 2 Gdaughters are raped one is killed heinously the other kidnapped and basically made a sex slave at ten years of age. The two G son's are killed after being brutalized.

So you, as you should, respond. You launch a campaign against them. You have no choice in this matter actually. And then these same enemies put their own wives and children in front of you to stop you, you stop the operation!?!??!

This is what they do!

To make it more simple if come into your home, rape your wife, kill your kids and tear up your house and then you come to respond, I throw my kids and wife in front of you and say, or the police, while I set behind them with a rifel, "How could you attack me and hurt these innocent women and children!"

This is insane thinking! Truly, and if you stopped it would just encourage me to do it again, and again and again! What a defensive strategy!

---

---

I'm not trying to manipulate your words at all. I'm trying to interpret them. That's why I phrased it as a question. So do you believe Israel's actions against the citizens of Gaza are deliberate but justified, deliberate and unjustified, or not deliberate?

Tom Fox said:

---

jaborch99 said:

---

Phatbob said:

---

I hate to tell you this, but your "points" were not compelling. They were spin. You have come at this from the very beginning like it's a school essay and you've been assigned a view that you have to support and you've grabbed some random things to try to justify your feelings on it instead of letting the facts determine your view.

You keep dismissing the fact that your proposed approaches have failed for decades, and that the Gazan combination of political, military, and religious makeup has been internally constructed to make fighters and maximize civilian casualties for the purpose of removing Israel off the map.

It cannot be allowed to exist in such a way anymore and letting up now will just let it go back to the status quo.

---

In discussions like this, I think it is helpful to find common ground. I think Premise 1 gives us a broad basis to agree on. Having laid that foundation, it makes more sense to proceed step-by-step, building the argument brick-by-brick rather than trying to tackle every historical complexity and nuance at once. In my experience, this approach leads to a more productive and helpful conversation, so that's how I'm approaching it in this thread

Right now, I'm focusing on one foundational question: Are Israel's actions deliberate? Unfortunately, the responses thus far have only side-stepped that direct question and deflected to questions about other conflicts, the broader history, and the religious elements of it. All of these are important, but it is premature to discuss those until we've grounded the debate in the basics.

You don't find my evidence compelling ... fair enough. But what would be more helpful is if you explained why it doesn't hold up - what specifically do you find false or deceptive (which is what I presume you mean by "spin"). Simply calling it spin or propaganda isn't an argument. It doesn't address the substance of my claims or the documented cases I shared. If you believe those cases are incorrect or deceptive, I'd like to hear your reasoning and evidence.

Admitting Israel is deliberate doesn't mean you have to give up your support for them. Maybe it is deliberate but justified. Maybe it is deliberate but the citizens are legitimate targets. Those are separate and important questions. Right now, my only question is Do you think Israel's actions against the Gazan citizens is deliberate?

---

We don't have agreement on Premise 1 until we adequately understand what you consider excessive hence Sam's question about which previous military conflicts did the US act excessively, if any.

---

I'll get to my definition of excessive when we get to that point of my argument. Since Premise 1 is a general principle, it is open for you to define it as you will. When I drill down on that part of my argument, I'll give my definition. And again, Premise 1 has nothing to do with Israel. You can fully agree with Premise 1 and NOT think that it describes Israel's actions.

Who?mikejones! said:

---

I think youre overstating how much agreement you have here on your first point.

---

Interesting (and scary)! So in your view, its morally right to deliberately harm or starve civilians and use excessive force, causing unnecessary civilian deaths, or is it legally right to do so. Or both?

Phatbob said:

---

Even that is too simplistic, but yes. But it isn't just Hamas, it is a death cult of some who are willing to put themselves and their children in line for martyrdom in order to cleanse the land of Jews. That's not a kind of person that can be negotiated with. That is not all of the people of Gaza, but it is enough to be like an organ riddled with cancer. There is no way to remove only the cancer cells, no matter how careful and skilled the surgeon is. Right now you're like someone outside in the waiting room criticizing the doctors for every healthy cell they take out, even though the area is already problematic and there's a good chance those cells will be cancerous given enought time. The answer is to solve the underlying problem. Remove any doubt that Israel will ever go away and make it clear that being in the death cult will only cause you and your loved ones death and destruction.

It will be hard for them to give up, but they have to if they want to live a life outside of a war zone.

---

Thanks for giving a clear answer!

jaborch99 said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

I think youre overstating how much agreement you have here on your first point.

---

Interesting (and scary)! So in your view, its morally right to deliberately harm or starve civilians and use excessive force, causing unnecessary civilian deaths, or is it legally right to do so. Or both?

---

I think first you have to define "civilian" before that question can be answered. If a person voted for a terrorist group to lead their nation, still supports that terrorist group after the Oct 7th attack, knows where one or more of the terrorists and./or hostages might be hiding, and refuses to avoid being near them or let anybody know where they can be found, are they still a civilian? Or are they a terrorist collaborator?

Ag with kids said:

---

jaborch99 said:

---

Phatbob said:

---

I hate to tell you this, but your "points" were not compelling. They were spin. You have come at this from the very beginning like it's a school essay and you've been assigned a view that you have to support and you've grabbed some random things to try to justify your feelings on it instead of letting the facts determine your view.

You keep dismissing the fact that your proposed approaches have failed for decades, and that the Gazan combination of political, military, and religious makeup has been internally constructed to make fighters and maximize civilian casualties for the purpose of removing Israel off the map.

It cannot be allowed to exist in such a way anymore and letting up now will just let it go back to the status quo.

---

In discussions like this, I think it is helpful to find common ground. I think Premise 1 gives us a broad basis to agree on. Having laid that foundation, it makes more sense to proceed step-by-step, building the argument brick-by-brick rather than trying to tackle every historical complexity and nuance at once. In my experience, this approach leads to a more productive and helpful conversation, so that's how I'm approaching it in this thread

Right now, I'm focusing on one foundational question: Are Israel's actions deliberate? Unfortunately, the responses thus far have only side-stepped that direct question and deflected to questions about other conflicts, the broader history, and the religious elements of it. All of these are important, but it is premature to discuss those until we've grounded the debate in the basics.

You don't find my evidence compelling ... fair enough. But what would be more helpful is if you explained why it doesn't hold up - what specifically do you find false or deceptive (which is what I presume you mean by "spin"). Simply calling it spin or propaganda isn't an argument. It doesn't address the substance of my claims or the documented cases I shared. If you believe those cases are incorrect or deceptive, I'd like to hear your reasoning and evidence.

Admitting Israel is deliberate doesn't mean you have to give up your support for them. Maybe it is deliberate but justified. Maybe it is deliberate but the citizens are legitimate targets. Those are separate and important questions. Right now, my only question is Do you think Israel's actions against the Gazan citizens is deliberate?

---

The Gazan citizens that are Hamas? YES

The Gazan citizens that are not Hamas? NO.

---

I can work with that answer. Thanks for being clear!