AggieEP said:

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Updated spreadsheet... OPAG plus one loser that starred his post are in favor of chopping up your political enemies and dissolving them in acid.

Just keeping track of some of your strong Christian positions here.

(BTW, I don't have any problem with the Saudis handling their own business, but the way they handled Khashoghi was grotesque.)

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" OPAG plus one loser that starred his post are in favor of chopping up your political enemies and dissolving them in acid."
LOL -That's quite a stretch .

You do know that Koshoggi was a player in the attempted coup and assassination of MBS, or do you not know that!?

The Religion of Peace has been doing this from it's start beginning with their founder. LOL

For someone who has been trained to take out terrorist, you seem to have very narrow view of how things go on in this region!, Especially 'the religion of peace"!

As a Christian, I do not subscribe to the passive roll over and allow demonic wicked men to rape, enslave and kill my people in the name of 'turning the other cheek'.

I am also very aware and educated on what will happen to my 5 (soon to be 6) beautiful grandaugthers, if the 'religion of peace' ever gains a dominant position in this country (or any country that they have power in)

As I said in an early post that is now buried. I am representing Pakistani Christian girls that have been targeted by adherents of the 'religion of peace' to be gang raped. There are HUNDREDS if not thousands of these cases.

The reason they are targeted is because they are Christians plain and simple and many and I mean many are told that they must convert to Islam, or else.

It is heinous it is wicked and it is the historical, not the exception So you can just pound sand, bro!

So sorting through your mad rambles, irrational fears and fabricated statistics, can you confirm your position as a Christian man that there is nothing morally wrong with dissolving your political opponents in acid after you chop them up with a bonesaw? I might add that this action was taken clandestinely with no public hearing or trial and with the intent to make it look like he simply disappeared. That's ok with you because Khashoghi was an Islamist and had ties to the Brotherhood?

I missed that Bible lesson, but I'm eager to hear your interpretation.

Yall get a room already

AggieEP said:

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So sorting through your mad rambles, irrational fears and fabricated statistics, can you confirm your position as a Christian man that there is nothing morally wrong with dissolving your political opponents in acid after you chop them up with a bonesaw? I might add that this action was taken clandestinely with no public hearing or trial and with the intent to make it look like he simply disappeared. That's ok with you because Khashoghi was an Islamist and had ties to the Brotherhood?

I missed that Bible lesson, but I'm eager to hear your interpretation.

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That's a nice stretch again, an ad homen attack to boot, No where did I say I was in favor of it, Just that this is the way of the 'religion of peace", the norm and has been from it's beginnings, There are reasons for the 'sword' as the emblem on the Saudi flag. Let's just say he was not 'offeded' because he was an innocent by stander. Please!

It is not I who has 'irrational fears' or 'mad rambles'. or 'fabricated statistic'; (I haven't put up any statistics) . It is you who are living in a fairy tale world of denial.

So there are no targeted rapes of Christian girls in PAK, right? That's all fabricated lies? Yea sure, again, you can pound sand, bro!

What about the UK, no Paki rape gangs right?

Again, pound sand, bro.

I have responsibility as a father and grandfather to served and protect my family and my country from all enemies both foreign and domestics. Islam is an enemy, a proven enemy of my nation and my culture, and yes my Christian faith. They have a clear history of killing, enslaving, and stealing from those who are not of their faith.

This is fact, irrefutable, and historically proven over and over again.

And I do believe it is both the Christian and moral thing to do, protect my family and my nation and my Christian people, from this sort of wickedness.

Queso1 said:

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What would you like them to do? Don't impute western democratic values and rights to people living under terror. But, I guess whatever helps you sleep at night…

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The irony here is that you think these people are just like you and would be happy and peaceful if only they weren't ruled by the organization that gained their overwhelming popular support because they wanted to murder every Israeli and kill all of the Jews and the PLO decided it was maybe time to think about a two state solution. Take your own advice and don't impute Western values on a culture that has been violent for centuries and is proud to have their kids blow themselves up to kill innocent people.

Every person who downplays legit concerns about muslim extremists would absolutely lose their s- if fundamentalist muslims moved in next door to them.

It's all hunky-dory to tell other people in faraway places to be more tolerant or radically intolerant people, but they turn nimby as fast as Martha's Vineyard when it happens to them.

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Every person who downplays legit concerns about muslim extremists would absolutely lose their s- if fundamentalist muslims moved in next door to them.

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It's not all, just about half.


The other half would lose their heads.

sam callahan said:

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Every person who downplays legit concerns about muslim extremists would absolutely lose their s- if fundamentalist muslims moved in next door to them.

It's all hunky-dory to tell other people in faraway places to be more tolerant or radically intolerant people, but they turn nimby as fast as Martha's Vineyard when it happens to them.

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It's not but about 10% of Muslims who would be called "extremists".

Wait……..there's a billion Muslims………

B-1 83 said:

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sam callahan said:

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Every person who downplays legit concerns about muslim extremists would absolutely lose their s- if fundamentalist muslims moved in next door to them.

It's all hunky-dory to tell other people in faraway places to be more tolerant or radically intolerant people, but they turn nimby as fast as Martha's Vineyard when it happens to them.

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It's not but about 10% of Muslims who would be called "extremists".

Wait……..there's a billion Muslims………

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I should probably take precautions with good data like this out there. According to this guy and his very scientifically based 10% claim, there is a horde of 100,000,000 extremists ready to start tearing me and my family apart.

I just don't understand how some of you are able to live your lives with these irrational fears running through your minds.

And for the other ridiculous example given, if a Muslim family moved in next door and started engaging in criminally illegal behavior, then the perpetrators should go to jail. If they move on next door and just like to read their Qurans who the eff cares? If you all dare to believe it, I once lived with an Iranian as my next door neighbor (practicing Shia) and I survived.

Yes there are Islamic extremists out there, yes they should be dealt with. No you shouldn't idiotically generalize that all of Islam is to be feared and that any Muslim could be "one of the bad ones."

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No you shouldn't idiotically generalize that all of Islam is to be feared and that any Muslim could be "one of the bad ones."

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You have been straw-manning this for this whole thread. Literally no one has said this.

AggieEP said:

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B-1 83 said:

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sam callahan said:

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Every person who downplays legit concerns about muslim extremists would absolutely lose their s- if fundamentalist muslims moved in next door to them.

It's all hunky-dory to tell other people in faraway places to be more tolerant or radically intolerant people, but they turn nimby as fast as Martha's Vineyard when it happens to them.

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It's not but about 10% of Muslims who would be called "extremists".

Wait……..there's a billion Muslims………

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I should probably take precautions with good data like this out there. According to this guy and his very scientifically based 10% claim, there is a horde of 100,000,000 extremists ready to start tearing me and my family apart.

I just don't understand how some of you are able to live your lives with these irrational fears running through your minds.

And for the other ridiculous example given, if a Muslim family moved in next door and started engaging in criminally illegal behavior, then the perpetrators should go to jail. If they move on next door and just like to read their Qurans who the eff cares? If you all dare to believe it, I once lived with an Iranian as my next door neighbor (practicing Shia) and I survived.

Yes there are Islamic extremists out there, yes they should be dealt with. No you shouldn't idiotically generalize that all of Islam is to be feared and that any Muslim could be "one of the bad ones."

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The precaution you should take is with your sarcasm and F16 post meter as well as recognizing what the post was answering.

I have really been impressed by Marco Rubio as the SoS. He has been locked in, on message, and over the target since he started.

Great job, Mr Rubio!

Phatbob said:

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No you shouldn't idiotically generalize that all of Islam is to be feared and that any Muslim could be "one of the bad ones."

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You have been straw-manning this for this whole thread. Literally no one has said this.

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This 100 times this!

By the way, whether you believe it or not makes no difference to me But I pastored a church in the Northeast (Yale) that raised over $50K to get a mother and two daughters who had been in living in harsh conditions an Afghan refugee camp in the UAE (a rich Islamic state) to get visas into the US, help settle them for a year, pay for education, find them work. What about you?

The stories they have will make your toes curl. Rape is weapon for these animals, and they do it in the name of Allah.

Guess what, they aren't Muslim's any more!

"Sure there are Muslim extremists, but there're not that many and they're just a tiny, insignificant minority. It's really not that bad. I even had an Iranian neighbor once! See! Totally cool!"


Weird how the minority Islamists and extremists control so many majority Muslim countries, though. I don't know if there's a single majority Muslim country that doesn't enforce Islamic law. I mean it's one thing to live next to an Iranian, but it's something else entirely to live in Iran and be governed by them.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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"Sure there are Muslim extremists, but there're not that many and they're just a tiny, insignificant minority. It's really not that bad. I even had an Iranian neighbor once! See! Totally cool!"


Weird how the minority Islamists and extremists control so many majority Muslim countries, though. I don't know if there's a single majority Muslim country that doesn't enforce Islamic law. I mean it's one thing to live next to an Iranian, but it's something else entirely to live in Iran and be governed by them.

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Well all i know is that every time there is an act of violence by a Muslim against a Christian, Jew, or other Infidel, the majority of peaceful muslims angrily and loudly shout the perpetrator down, and totally denounce and ostracise them.

No, wait. That doesn't happen.

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And for the other ridiculous example given, if a Muslim family moved in next door and started engaging in criminally illegal behavior, then the perpetrators should go to jail. If they move on next door and just like to read their Qurans who the eff cares? If you all dare to believe it, I once lived with an Iranian as my next door neighbor (practicing Shia) and I survived.

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My post explicitly stated radical muslims. But like you have so many other times with others you conveniently overlook that in your response.

I have a muslim neighbor from Pakistan. He loves working in the yard, proudly drives his Deere riding lawn mower, celebrates the 4th and Halloween with all of us, decorates his golf cart for the neighborhood Thanksgiving parade, his mom walks daily throughout the neighborhood in her traditional garb. I have zero fear of him and would be sad to see him move. He has assimilated quite nicely.

None of that (or any other of my muslim friends or co-workers) discounts that there are places where radical islam is a huge problem and people are well within their rights to be frustrated, fearful, and uncomfortable with it.

Are you saying if you were putting your daughter by herself in a taxi that you would have exactly the same level of concern with driver A who shows signs of being a fundamentalist muslim as you would with driver B who is wearing a MAGA cap and listening to Buck Owens?

Are you saying that if you moved to Europe, you wouldn't avoid moving to a neighborhood with a high concentration of muslim immigrants?

They do, you just don't want to listen.

I'm not going to post a bunch of links, but the quickest of Google searches gives you hundreds and hundreds of results of Muslims condemning terrorism and violence.

Do you need a census of every Muslim's opinion on terrorism?

All islamic followers will force their religion on you when they aquire enough power to do it. Call to prayer coming to your community soon.

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As a Christian, I do not subscribe to the passive roll over and allow demonic wicked men to rape, enslave and kill my people in the name of 'turning the other cheek'.

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Amen.

I'm convinced that weak, liberal men are the ones that started interpreting and preaching "turning the other cheek" as rolling over and taking it from all forms of evil men.

AggieEP said:

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They do, you just don't want to listen.

I'm not going to post a bunch of links, but the quickest of Google searches gives you hundreds and hundreds of results of Muslims condemning terrorism and violence.

Do you need a census of every Muslim's opinion on terrorism?

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Yes, it's a cancer

I agree with your first 3 paragraphs, what you wrote isn't something I disagree with.

As for paragraph 4, how do I know he's a fundamental Muslim when I get in the cab? Is he going to blow himself up because I got in the cab? He had that prepared in advance? I don't really understand the what if scenario here. Am I requesting an extremist to drive me? If so, then of course I wouldn't deliberately ask for an extremist.

And for 5, immigrant/refugee neighborhoods are generally very poor and riddled with crime. No I wouldn't want to live there. In Europe or any other country living in a socio-economically.poor neighborhood isn't generally something I desire.

A better what if scenario would be to ask me if I'd live in a similar socio-economic neighborhood in a stable Muslim majority country (Jordan, Tunisia, Morocco, Oman, Saudi Arabia) and to that I'd answer yes. I send my students to do homestays in these places, I've gone to these places. What am I afraid of?

Phatbob said:

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No you shouldn't idiotically generalize that all of Islam is to be feared and that any Muslim could be "one of the bad ones."

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You have been straw-manning this for this whole thread. Literally no one has said this.

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Just look through the posts by samurai science, 4, Farnsworth etc. There is no nuance to what they are saying. They are declaring Islam an unequivocal evil. No qualifications.

If that's not you, than cool, we don't have beef. It's disingenuous though to claim straw man here when every page of this thread is littered with at least a few posts condemning all of Islam with no strings attached.

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As for paragraph 4, how do I know he's a fundamental Muslim when I get in the cab? Is he going to blow himself up because I got in the cab? He had that prepared in advance? I don't really understand the what if scenario here. Am I requesting an extremist to drive me? If so, then of course I wouldn't deliberately ask for an extremist.

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The scenario was putting your daughter in a cab and not full knowledge of him being a fundamentalist, but signs of it. It's not hard. But again you shift to deflect.

Much like the picking a neighborhood question, you introduce a new option to the implied all things being equal premise. Even that is a poor explanation because you dismiss all the crime as being poverty-driven. UK violent crimes are up, not because of an increase in poverty. There were poor people and crime in Luton before the immigration influx of fundamentalist muslims. Crime - especially violent crime - has gone up exponentially. Are the people of Luton not justified in being upset about that? Should they just not notice the muslim influence to appease your politically correct standards?

I am far from saying all muslims are bad, but to ignore the very real correlation at play here is destructive.

I'm genuinely curious, what "signs" do you see as the guy drives up that let you know he's a fundamentalist? Is he using Qurans as booster seats? He has a bumper sticker that says death to infidels? Is it just that he's brown with a beard? AK47 on the passenger seat?

And for the neighborhood question, the data is pretty clear that refugee populations are very vulnerable to poverty, unemployment, alienation and radicalization. No I do not want to live in a refugee neighborhood. And yes I might consider moving if my neighborhood changed significantly due to an influx of refugees.(Middle Eastern, Asian, or Latin American) I have the financial ability to choose where I live. The previous statement doesn't have anything to do with Islam though but rather the numerous issues that might arise from a big influx of vulnerable immigrants. I stated previously on this thread that I'm pretty anti-immigrant and hope that Trump is able to get legislation passed that can set us on a better path towards taking care of Americans and our way of life.

If you met me, you'd probably be surprised just how conservative I am on many issues. But on the topic of Islam I'm very sensitive to the dangers of othering whole communities of faith. It won't happen, but if I could take you on a tour of the Middle East you'd be surprised how much fun you'd have. My man Shadi in Amman could take us on a night club tour and with the way I can speak Arabic I could get you the opportunity to see sides of the culture you're probably not aware exist.

AggieEP said:

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Phatbob said:

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No you shouldn't idiotically generalize that all of Islam is to be feared and that any Muslim could be "one of the bad ones."

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You have been straw-manning this for this whole thread. Literally no one has said this.

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Just look through the posts by samurai science, 4, Farnsworth etc. There is no nuance to what they are saying. They are declaring Islam an unequivocal evil. No qualifications.

If that's not you, than cool, we don't have beef. It's disingenuous though to claim straw man here when every page of this thread is littered with at least a few posts condemning all of Islam with no strings attached.

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You are the one who is unable to separate the people from the beliefs. People are people the world over. Islam is a danger to the world just as any dangerous ideology.

That's why people accuse you of strawmanning - you twist posts to the absurd and then knock them down.

Does your imagination not allow for you to picture someone that would make you think Islamic fundamentalist (not terrorist)?

And are you saying there is zero correlation between Islam and the crimes in Luton? Poor English hooligans are raping young girls at the same rate as poor Pakistanis?

That doesn't answer my question, what are you seeing that lets you know that the guy rolling up in a taxi is a fundamentalist?

You brought this up. Answer the question. How do you know at a quick glance?

You seem to believe it's obvious, but you haven't answered the question. I know a few small details that I can see on a car that can tell me a bit (but not the whole story) about the driver because I've got 15 years of cultural and language experience, but I'm pretty sure you don't have that kind of nuanced eye. I also know that my cab drivers are excited about the fat US dollar tips I leave and aren't interested in hurting me or any of my guests.

Most people in the worst belief systems are just normal people, too. That doesn't validate the beliefs. They can't exist without the extremes. Most Germans were perfectly reasonable people, but they were still Nazis, and there is no nazi Germany without the SS. Most Soviets were just normal people , but again there is was no USSR without the KGB.

The extremists are enough to keep whole groups of people toeing the line, it's dangerous for them to do otherwise

I'm saying that arguing the crimes are caused by Islam is a really weak logical link. Not debating whether Pakistanis are committing the crimes. I fully believe they are. And yes, it's highly likely that some of the perps think that their behavior is condoned by Islam. But, they are criminals, so I give less weight to their interpretations of Islam.

I have had EXTREMELY negative experiences with Pakistanis. Of all the groups I've had to deal with, I have had more trouble with them than any others. In my opinion, Pakistani culture has some features that I struggle with. Are most Pakistanis Muslim, yes, so I can see where the connection can be drawn, but I'm telling you that you have to dig a bit deeper to understand what's going on here. It's a combination of religion informing culture informing behavior. You add some fuel to the fire with the easy availability of fundamentalist messages on the Internet, and before long you have communities acting out with dangerous and aberrant behavior.

It's a really unfortunate situation all around. In my dream world Britain would deport these Pakistanis not because they're Muslim, but because they never should have been let in in the first place. The western world in our attempt to be sympathetic has created this issue for ourselves by in taking large numbers of highly vulnerable populations. Our responsibility should have always been to our own people first and not to any groups of Somalis, Pakistanis, Afghans etc.

Phatbob said:

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Most people in the worst belief systems are just normal people, too. That doesn't validate the beliefs. They can't exist without the extremes. Most Germans were perfectly reasonable people, but they were still Nazis, and there is no nazi Germany without the SS. Most Soviets were just normal people , but again there is was no USSR without the KGB.

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And similarly, there's no Gaza Strip without Hamas or some similar extreme Jew-hating group.

Despite you being purposely obtuse...

Taxi Cab:

It's 11:00 PM and your wife is in the hospital. You and your 15 year old daughter have been with her for the day, but only one guest is allowed to stay the night and you feel it needs to be you in case medical decisions need to be made. You have to send your daughter across town back to home. You've tried every other option and the only thing you can do is send her in a cab by herself.

You go out to the portico of the hospital and there are two cabs, each apart from one another.

Cab A has the aforementioned driver in a MAGA cap and he is listening to Willie Nelson. He is dressed in jeans and looks like Jimbo Fisher (eta) or Kevin Sumlin or George Lopez.

Cab B's driver is rolling up his prayer rug. He has arabic music playing on his stereo. He is wearing a taqiyah and a kandurah.

Gun to your head, which one are you picking?

Neighbors:

Yep, you can afford a nice neighborhood. But your next door neighbor dies and leaves his house to Amnesty International. They decide to house refugees there until the market improves and they can sell it for more. They ask you if you have a preference. 10 random refugees from Gaza or 10 from Ukraine.

Do you have a preference? Would that preference be different if you were Jewish?

It's not about knowing for ceratin bad things will happen. Just the odds.

These situations aren't just about Islam. If you had a babysitter for your kid and the only choice was an effeminate Catholic priest or a Lutheran Grandma, you'd pick the grandma. Not because all men are bad. Not because all effeminate men are bad, Not because all older women are good. You'd play the odds. You would use your ability to discrimanate between choices.

If you say none of that matters to you, I don't believe you.

But, that won't be your response. You will just straw man or deny reality again.

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And yes, it's highly likely that some of the perps think that their behavior is condoned by Islam. But, they are criminals, so I give less weight to their interpretations of Islam.

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1. It isn't just likely. It is fact.

2. Your use of "some" downplays the significance.

3. And your dismissal translates to "it's not convenient, so I am going to dismiss it"


You can argue with them all you want their interpretation is wrong, but a not small amount of muslims believe otherwise.

If 10% of Methodists believed child rape was okay and I got scrutinized more because I am Methodist, does that suck for me. Sure. But if my town had a ring of Methodist child sex traffickers and people raised their suspicions about me, I'd understand why.

And I do agree with you that culture plays a part. Religion is a part of culture. They are intertwinned, You can's separate the two, especially when the offending parties are citing their religious texts.