If they got a meeting after Zelensky, it is a safe bet they requested a meeting prior to Zelenskyy and that request was denied or spurned

nortex97 said:

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Well, talks roll on I guess.

Donald Trump Truth Social 05.19.25 01:33 PM EST pic.twitter.com/Vopn40AXrv

— Commentary Donald J. Trump Posts From Truth Social (@TrumpDailyPosts) May 19, 2025

Good to see, ultimately. Europe/nato must be brought to heel of peace is to be reached though, imho.

---

Lol - yes it's Europe that needs to be "brought to heel" in order for peace to be reached, and not literally the only country and person who is responsible for the war continuing. At least you're consistent.

Europe is all talk anyway and Ukraine knows it, they can't afford the military they have now.

Even the NYT is now admitting Nato was a driver to the war's initiation. I don't write for the NYT, though for around 5 years (many years ago, before a paywall etc) I had my homepage set to NYT.com just to see what the enemy was saying, full disclaimer.

This is quite something, the New York Times finally admits that NATO expansion was one of the causes of the Ukraine war (https://t.co/MzbWP5tD1Y).

"From Moscow’s perspective, the Russians need to bolster their defenses to protect themselves from NATO expansion, which has always… pic.twitter.com/oVcD3PC8tU

— Arnaud Bertrand (@RnaudBertrand) May 20, 2025

Simplicius fwiw calls the discussion a dead end. More AFU mutinies is interesting though.

Quote:

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Quote:

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"I have never received more stupid missions than in the current sector (Russia's Kursk region)," said Maj. Oleksandr Shirshyn in a rare public criticism of Ukraine's Armed Forces (AFU) senior leadership by a fighting officer.
"The loss of people was stupid, who are terrorized by clueless generalship that leads to nothing but failures. All they (top army leaders) are capable of is reprimands, investigations, imposition of penalties. Everything is going to Hell," Shirhsyn wrote in comments published on his personal Facebook page.

---

Keep in mind all of this is pulled from Ukrainian sources, so there is no 'Russian propaganda' here.
The Kyiv Post article further notes:

Quote:

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Military reporter Yury Butusov, one of Ukraine's most widely read war correspondents, said Shirshyn's description of recent fighting in the Kursk region was accurate, and that 47th Brigade attack columns suffered heavy losses because they were ordered to drive their armored vehicles into the teeth of ready Russian defenses covered by dense drone swarms.

---

---

Quote:

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If that wasn't bad enough, Ukrainska Pravda also reports that the AFU's 155th Mechanized Brigadenot to be confused with the indomitable Russian 155th Marineshas had such severe issues of late that it has recorded more than 1,200 AWOL cases just since the start of 2025:

Quote:

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Ukrainska Pravda reports that, amidst ongoing command issues and corruption allegations, the 155th Mechanized Brigade has recorded more than 1,200 cases of AWOL/desertion since the beginning of 2025. The main causes are transferring soldiers from different MOS' to the infantry and a lack of support, including supply of UAVs. Their sources also allege that other kickbacks were occurring in other battalions in the brigade. After the article was published, Major General Mykhailo Drapatyi ordered an additional investigation into the allegations.

---

---

Ah well, war is hell and all of that. More at the link.

Senior Ukrainian diplomat Lana Zerkal says Ukrainian red lines are about “language, faith and army”, not about territory.

So basically let’s stick with a suicidally divisive ethnonationalist project at the cost of remaining Russian-speaking territory as well as a better half of…

— Leonid Ragozin (@leonidragozin) May 19, 2025

Such a stupid war.

Sq 17 said:

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If they got a meeting after Zelensky, it is a safe bet they requested a meeting prior to Zelenskyy and that request was denied or spurned

---

It's a safe bet VP Vance and Marco Rubio had zero coordination or interest in when/if the goblin met with the new Pope. Goodness.

Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov says Russia “will not abandon the Orthodox people of Ukraine” and will continue fighting to restore the rights of the Orthodox Church. pic.twitter.com/cZTruzZPcg

— Polymarket Intel (@PolymarketIntel) May 20, 2025

Trump said he won’t impose new sanctions on Russia yet, saying there’s still a chance for progress.

He repeated that he trusts Putin, warned sanctions could worsen the situation, and said he’d walk away if talks stall due to “big egos.” He also questioned whether Ukraine is… pic.twitter.com/dEdJnLu1lU

— Polymarket Intel (@PolymarketIntel) May 20, 2025

We'll see, I suppose.

The more DJT talks peace the more Putin hates it, Putin sees victory and the restoring of order to his old Soviet past. Putin is playing everyone like a quarter.

Burpelson said:

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The more DJT talks peace the more Putin hates it, Putin sees victory and the restoring of order to his old Soviet past. Putin is playing everyone like a quarter.

---

If we'd finally just pull out of Nato, I think tensions will ease quickly. Russia offered Kiev terms to end the war in Turkey, they just were flatly rejected.

NATO is guilty of the worst crimes against humanity of the 21st century - and has been constantly expanding up to and along Russia's borders for decades.

To pretend Russia reacting to NATO - the central threat to global peace and stability, guilty of multiple wars of aggression… https://t.co/4c6PQBADo7

— Brian Berletic (@BrianJBerletic) May 20, 2025

I do think Trump hand-waves 'our' role (Biden admin) in starting the conflict,

Quote:

---

US President Donald Trump has rebuked his predecessor, Joe Biden, for funneling vast amounts of American taxpayer money into a foreign conflict that "should have remained a European situation."

Speaking to reporters at the White House following a phone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday, Trump expressed frustration over the "crazy" scale of US involvement in the Ukraine conflict. He reiterated that it is "not our war" and stressed that his administration is working to end it through diplomacy.

"This is not our war. This is not my war… I mean, we got ourselves entangled in something that we shouldn't have been involved in. And we would have been a lot better off and maybe the whole thing would have been better off because it can't be much worse. It's a real mess," Trump said.

The president stated that Washington has provided "massive"and "record-setting" levels of military and financial assistance to Kiev far exceeding what the EU and other NATO countries have contributed.

---

The simple truth is that despite all the talk about ramping up spending, the EU does not have the materiel/capacity to replace what we have been providing to Kiev.

UKRAINE: Not a single day of meaningful diplomacy has passed without Zelensky rushing to sabotage it. pic.twitter.com/yQ3ODMbpEo

— @amuse (@amuse) May 20, 2025

Post one bad thing about Putin. I dare you. I double dare you.

The last three years you have been posting literally dozens of posts any given day that I have happened to browse this message board - and I don't think a single one has ever been directed at Russia in a negative light for any sort of blame that this conflict started or now won't end. It is seemingly 100% on us.

Instead your solution appears to be: Let Ukraine collapse in 'Fall of Saigon' fashion (we're out!) and disband NATO (we're out!) obviously because doing the former implies doing the latter by giving the middle finger to our key Allies over there (we're out you leeches!).

Because apparently the USA having a strong military presence and influence in Europe the past 80 years has been a BAD thing for our country - not a key factor whatsoever in the USA being the dominant world economy and super power- so let's just blow that system all up and see what happens.

Can you take all your Russian propaganda back to the crazy thread?

I know i know. It's not Russian propaganda and the West is propaganda. You don't have to repeat it.

Therrs a difference in wanting the war to end ornot wanting to pay for the war with American dollars and the constant Russian propaganda you post. There's already an entire thread dedicated to that. Please go back there.

Wow. It only took reading one post to hit my monthly propaganda viewing limit!

Also, you should really check out the rest of Brian Berletic's tweets before using him as a source, especially on here.

BLowing up NATO and the USA leaving Europe to fend for itself militarily is literally what Putin and the right wing ultra nationalists in Russia want…because that US led system eventually broke the Soviet Union and has gradually backed Russia into the corner they are in today. So let's just blow NATO all up advocates the pro-Russia folks. NATO is actually a 'bad' thing thing for the USA. Of course pro Russia propaganda sites will advocate that!

Was waiting to see if this was confirmed. Pretty funny.

🇺🇦🇧🇬 During the negotiations in Istanbul, a translator from Ukrainian Defense Minister Umerov’s team fled to Bulgaria

Among the members of the Ukrainian delegation that recently arrived for talks with the Russian side was a crucial Russian-Ukrainian translator named Oleg… pic.twitter.com/RIiCFwKFBX

— Ukraine Watch (@real_ukrwatch) May 19, 2025

The Kiev regime doesn't have a great amount of loyalists left. Everyone at the negotiations spoke Russian anyway so this was just a silly role to delay talks over the escapee.

Pumpkinhead said:

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BLowing up NATO and the USA leaving Europe to fend for itself militarily is literally what Putin and the right wing ultra nationalists in Russia want…because that US led system eventually broke the Soviet Union and has gradually backed Russia into the corner they are in today. So let's just blow NATO all up advocates the pro-Russia folks. NATO is actually a 'bad' thing thing for the USA. Of course pro Russia propaganda sites will advocate that!

---

Yeah to end the war Russia started the U.S. needs to capitulate and leave NATO? I hate NATO but if Putin wants us to leave then I'm staying in just to show him we aren't a bunch of wankers.

Counterpoint said:

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Wow. It only took reading one post to hit my monthly propaganda viewing limit!

Also, you should really check out the rest of Brian Berletic's tweets before using him as a source, especially on here.

---

It is a delusional dose of Russian propaganda spout out like a bad case of diarrhea exploding every morning and smaller bouts throughout the day.

docb said:

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Counterpoint said:

---

Wow. It only took reading one post to hit my monthly propaganda viewing limit!

Also, you should really check out the rest of Brian Berletic's tweets before using him as a source, especially on here.

---

It is a delusional dose of Russian propaganda spout out like a bad case of diarrhea exploding every morning and smaller bouts throughout the day.

---

Seriously, he's like MSNBC, but for Russia

Pumpkinhead said:

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Instead your solution appears to be: Let Ukraine collapse in 'Fall of Saigon' fashion (we're out!) and disband NATO (we're out!) obviously because doing the former implies doing the latter by giving the middle finger to our key Allies over there (we're out you leeches!).

Because apparently the USA having a strong military presence and influence in Europe the past 80 years has been a BAD thing for our country - not a key factor whatsoever in the USA being the dominant world economy and super power- so let's just blow that system all up and see what happens.

---

If it was 1955 I think your take here would be spot on. Unfortunately Western Europe is no longer an honest actor in global politics. In fact, I would argue that from NATO/ EU down, they are blowing up the system from within. It isn't an abrupt transition for all to see; rather a slow drip of corruption and subversion intended to eventually dismantle Western Civilization as we know it. Globalism is a cancer that will destroy, from within, everyone who embraces it (UK, Ireland, Sweden, Germany, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Canada, Australia, South Africa, etc...). Any sacrifice the US makes to "save Ukraine" is surrendering assets to prop up Globalism. Essentially paying someone to rape your wife.

I grew up in the 80's. Hated everything USSR and still do. Had to climb under desks for "wartime drills" in the event that we were bombed by USSR. I despised the Soviet machine for my entire life. Putin is not the enemy here. He's the lesser of two evils that may be the last line of defense to preserve Europe not destroy it (as we've been told).

nortex97 said:

---

Even the NYT is now admitting Nato was a driver to the war's initiation. I don't write for the NYT, though for around 5 years (many years ago, before a paywall etc) I had my homepage set to NYT.com just to see what the enemy was saying, full disclaimer.

This is quite something, the New York Times finally admits that NATO expansion was one of the causes of the Ukraine war (https://t.co/MzbWP5tD1Y).

"From Moscow’s perspective, the Russians need to bolster their defenses to protect themselves from NATO expansion, which has always… pic.twitter.com/oVcD3PC8tU

— Arnaud Bertrand (@RnaudBertrand) May 20, 2025

---

No, they aren't admitting NATO was a driver. They are correctly stating Russia is publicly blaming NATO as a driver.

No one, outside of the Russia's PR engine and its twitter sycophants, actually thinks Russia invaded because of a bunch of countries voluntarily joining a defensive pact to help make sure they aren't the next Ukraine. Thankfully Russia is running out of options for the next time they decide they want to keep expanding, starting more wars and murdering more civilians.

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

Phatbob said:

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docb said:

---

Counterpoint said:

---

Wow. It only took reading one post to hit my monthly propaganda viewing limit!

Also, you should really check out the rest of Brian Berletic's tweets before using him as a source, especially on here.

---

It is a delusional dose of Russian propaganda spout out like a bad case of diarrhea exploding every morning and smaller bouts throughout the day.

---

Seriously, he's like MSNBC, but for Russia

---

He reminds me of one of those lefties who go around explain "their truth" as if it where fact.

Nato has committed the greats atrocities he says, especially that expanding nato bit (im not sure what other worst atrocities he is alleging nato has made.

However, don't look over here at putin/Russia who has mercilessly bombed civilian infrastructure, wiped entire cities off the map, kidnapped thousands of children, disappeared his political opponents, still run his version of Siberian gulags.

But yeah, nato expansion and all that.

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Conveniently left off "From moscow's prospective..."

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

"Threatening to Moscow". Aka Russia's public opinion. Which anyone even remotely objective knows is bs and that NATO only poses a threat to Russia's ability to start more unprovoked wars. And yet your opinion is NATO, and not the country solely responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths (including continuing to drone civilians) and the only reason why this war is continuing, needs to be "brought to heel." Like I said, at least you're consistent.

The Victoria nuland deserve a lot of blame. Sorry I am mobile so can't pull a more complete response.

🏆 Jeffrey Sachs Should Be A Nobel Prize Winner

Wars are the result of politics.

They gambled Ukraine's safety and they lost.

And it was a terrible mistake.

It's been a war over NATO enlargement.

United States should have ended NATO

They told President Gorbachev on… pic.twitter.com/Sw65SDbJd0

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) April 23, 2025

Many warned of the impact of brining Kiev into the "defensive alliance." From James Baker on down. Scott Horton's book has the receipts in long form.

The machine protects itself, as seen in Romania this week.

Thanks for continuing to prove my point. It's always someone else's fault besides the one person who launched the invasion and is currently keeping the war going.

Who?mikejones! said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Conveniently left off "From moscow's prospective..."

---

"From Moscow's prospective" might as well be in Nortex's signature at this point.

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:

"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

All Baltic equivalancies are bootlicker red herrings. No nukes and no offensive threat. Military presence is peanuts and purely defensive. Total BS argument.

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Devastating.

The "100% Putin" trope is officially out the window per NYT

MJ20/20 said:

---

Pumpkinhead said:

---

Instead your solution appears to be: Let Ukraine collapse in 'Fall of Saigon' fashion (we're out!) and disband NATO (we're out!) obviously because doing the former implies doing the latter by giving the middle finger to our key Allies over there (we're out you leeches!).

Because apparently the USA having a strong military presence and influence in Europe the past 80 years has been a BAD thing for our country - not a key factor whatsoever in the USA being the dominant world economy and super power- so let's just blow that system all up and see what happens.

---

If it was 1955 I think your take here would be spot on. Unfortunately Western Europe is no longer an honest actor in global politics. In fact, I would argue that from NATO/ EU down, they are blowing up the system from within. It isn't an abrupt transition for all to see; rather a slow drip of corruption and subversion intended to eventually dismantle Western Civilization as we know it. Globalism is a cancer that will destroy, from within, everyone who embraces it (UK, Ireland, Sweden, Germany, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Canada, Australia, South Africa, etc...). Any sacrifice the US makes to "save Ukraine" is surrendering assets to prop up Globalism. Essentially paying someone to rape your wife.

I grew up in the 80's. Hated everything USSR and still do. Had to climb under desks for "wartime drills" in the event that we were bombed by USSR. I despised the Soviet machine for my entire life. Putin is not the enemy here. He's the lesser of two evils that may be the last line of defense to preserve Europe not destroy it (as we've been told).

---

This is your opinion and you have a right to it.

My own opinion is that the U.S. leaving NATO, isolating itself from its strongest allies, and leaving Europe to 'fend for itself' would be a generationally bad foreign policy blunder, add even more fuel to an arms race over there, further embolden the ultra-nationalists in Russia, and thus increase the risk (not decrease) of another major war.

You are not the only one with your opinion. And I am not the only one with mine.

Fortunately for the side of folks who agree with my point of view, I don't think the Trump administration will make that sort of move. Although they do seem legitimately annoyed by the situation and wish that it would end, and although they talk such things at times, some actions indicate otherwise. I think the possibility of abandoning NATO is about the same as Canada becoming the 51st state.

Unfortunately though, I really really really wish Trump administration would drop the soft ball tactics with Putin and try some hard ball. I think the soft ball is simply not working and just encouraging the Russians to keep this stupid war going. I'd rather see a real coordinated response right now using all of the United State and Western Europe's economic leverage - which is several orders of magnitude greater than Russia whose GDP is not even the size of the state of Texas - to really squeeze the hell out of their natural gas and oil income stream. Work with OPEC to keep the oil prices low, drive an economic wedge between China and Russia, use tariffs to penalize other countries from buying from Russia, etc. Create a real threat to the Russia income stream while continuing to military support Ukraine.

Let Russia know that the United States isn't walking away and THEN offer Russia the carrots of keeping Crimea and the Donbass and Ukraine won't be a member of NATO. Make it clear to Russia that now is the time to get out while the getting is good. But you also gotta IMO hit them upside the head with a big Stick to have any leverage to make them come to the negotiating table. This approach thus far by Trump, it just doesn't seem to be working. It just seems to be fueling their hubris over there that they can keep killing for more and more, and thus Putin is using a long drawn out meandering diplomatic process thus far to stall and stall and stall while the dying just keeps going.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Devastating.

The "100% Putin" trope is officially out the window per NYT

---

It's only devastating if you lack basic reading comprehension skills or are intentionally being obtuse.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Devastating.

The "100% Putin" trope is officially out the window per NYT's summary of the Russian PR point of view.

---

Fify. But you already knew that.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Devastating.

The "100% Putin" trope is officially out the window per NYT

---

Correct, but we need to keep war going for some reason

samurai_science said:

---

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Devastating.

The "100% Putin" trope is officially out the window per NYT

---

Correct, but we need to keep war going for some reason

---

Everybody but Russia right now wants a cease fire. Why won't Russia agree to at least a 30-day cease fire and Putin himself join a peace negotiation with Trump and Zelensky? The Trump admin has offered that opportunity and made it clear Ukraine is going to have to give up a lot of land as a concession but Russia wants no part of it. They just keep stalling the process while they (apparently) are staging forces for yet another summer offensive to continue the land grab.

pagerman @ work said:

---

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Devastating.

The "100% Putin" trope is officially out the window per NYT

---

It's only devastating if you lack basic reading comprehension skills or are intentionally being obtuse.

---

Its devastating because NYT is accurately reporting reality. Never thought I'd say that.

samurai_science said:

---

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Devastating.

The "100% Putin" trope is officially out the window per NYT

---

Correct, but we need to keep war going for some reason

---

Who is "we"? Putin is the only person keeping the war going currently.

Russian advances/movements. The 30km FPV drone strikes are also a newish development. Longish thread:

Alternatively or at the same time, russian forces could try to encircle Pokrovsk or taking Dobropilla, a significant supply hub in western Donetsk oblast.

This particular progress could be followed by an infiltration in Pokrovsk after an isolation from the west. pic.twitter.com/8ddxYn6JWT

— Clément Molin (@clement_molin) May 19, 2025

'What they have asked for are air defenses, Which frankly we don't have."

⚡️Trump: "US involvement in Ukraine a BIG MISTAKE"

Meanwhile: pic.twitter.com/t2Hu2MrjFQ

— SIMPLICIUS Ѱ (@simpatico771) May 21, 2025

In weird news, Ukrainians killed a former presidential advisor in Madrid as he dropped his kids off at "The American School" and somehow a couple Ukrainians (and Romanian) were involved/arrested for fire bombing Keir Starmer's properties, which makes no real sense at all to me.

Not a lot of peace talk today. ETA, well, something from Rubio at least.

Ukraine crisis will end in 'negotiated settlement,' says Rubio: 'There is no military solution' https://t.co/69H8Hpryoe

— John Solomon (@jsolomonReports) May 21, 2025

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

samurai_science said:

---

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Devastating.

The "100% Putin" trope is officially out the window per NYT

---

Correct, but we need to keep war going for some reason

---

Who is "we"? Putin is the only person keeping the war going currently.

---

Warmonger's in the west want it to continue for some reason

samurai_science said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

samurai_science said:

---

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

I disagree. Nyt quote:
"The Baltic nations were the first members of the former Soviet Union to join NATO, bringing large stretches of Russia's border up against NATO's. The prospect of Ukraine, an even bigger former Soviet republic, following suit was so threatening to Moscow that it became one of the causes of the most devastating land war in generations.""

---

Devastating.

The "100% Putin" trope is officially out the window per NYT

---

Correct, but we need to keep war going for some reason

---

Who is "we"? Putin is the only person keeping the war going currently.

---

Warmonger's in the west want it to continue for some reason

---

Those "warmongers" have been aggressively pushing for a ceasefire for months, which Russia is blocking. Russia is the only reason this war is still continuing, not anyone in the West.