Russo Ukrainian peace on a knife's edge

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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to Teslag • 10:38a, 5/25/25
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
You said : "And I've seen no evidence that Ukraine is willing to capitulate except for conjecture on a message board."

So I gave you 2 recent quotes of leaders in Ukraine willing to give up land for peace.

I'm not sure what magical question you think I ignored or can't/wont answer.


The issue here is your obfuscation of equating what those Ukrainian leaders are saying and Russia is proposing. Nearly everyone, including myself and those Ukrainian leaders, realize that Ukraine will realistically have to give lands under Russian control for peace. But that's not what Russia is offering for "peace". They want lands not under their control. Lands that include the cities of Kherson and Kharkiv which are under no threat of Russian occupation, and comprise over 1 million Ukrainians who have no interests in being Russians. Zalzhuny would never agree to that, and it's absurd for anyone to think that's anything beyond absurd.


Zelensky has consistently stated that Ukraine will not legally recognize any occupied territories as Russian, including Crimea. In his 60 minutes interview he acknowledged Ukraine can't retake these territories by force, but he firmly rejected recognizing Russian control over these areas.
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docb
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In reply to Funky Winkerbean • 10:50a, 5/25/25
Funky Winkerbean said:
Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:
Children aren't combatants. So murder seems to be appropriate.
Murder by definition has intent. Can you prove intent?

Dude seriously. What is wrong with you?
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Teslag
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 11:02a, 5/25/25
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
You said : "And I've seen no evidence that Ukraine is willing to capitulate except for conjecture on a message board."

So I gave you 2 recent quotes of leaders in Ukraine willing to give up land for peace.

I'm not sure what magical question you think I ignored or can't/wont answer.


The issue here is your obfuscation of equating what those Ukrainian leaders are saying and Russia is proposing. Nearly everyone, including myself and those Ukrainian leaders, realize that Ukraine will realistically have to give lands under Russian control for peace. But that's not what Russia is offering for "peace". They want lands not under their control. Lands that include the cities of Kherson and Kharkiv which are under no threat of Russian occupation, and comprise over 1 million Ukrainians who have no interests in being Russians. Zalzhuny would never agree to that, and it's absurd for anyone to think that's anything beyond absurd.


Zelensky has consistently stated that Ukraine will not legally recognize any occupied territories as Russian, including Crimea. In his 60 minutes interview he acknowledged Ukraine can't retake these territories by force, but he firmly rejected recognizing Russian control over these areas.


And? This is about the views of Zalzhuny, who does not and will not support anything close to Russia's current surrender offer.
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FIDO_Ags
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In reply to Funky Winkerbean • 11:03a, 5/25/25
I'll give in. Loading a missile into a launcher, aiming it at a random area of a city with no military value, and firing that missile.

We'll call it manslaughter. Feel better now? I'm sure the families of the dead civilians recognize the nuance.
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FIDO_Ags
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 11:09a, 5/25/25
The fascination aspect of your reasoning is that the Ukrainians should just accept the Russian terms just so the killing can stop.

Why are you so concerned with the Ukrainians taking responsibility for maintaining the war the Russians started?

Where is the Russian responsibility for stopping the killing?
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Funky Winkerbean
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 11:15a, 5/25/25
Because they can't win unless outside nations provide troops, and there's no reason to believe those nations are going to commit their infantry.
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FIDO_Ags
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In reply to Funky Winkerbean • 11:27a, 5/25/25
You don't know that.
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Funky Winkerbean
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 11:29a, 5/25/25
What's their path to victory? Where are the Ukrainians going to turn when they run out of soldiers?
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samurai_science
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 11:29a, 5/25/25
FIDO_Ags said:
The fascination aspect of your reasoning is that the Ukrainians should just accept the Russian terms just so the killing can stop.

Why are you so concerned with the Ukrainians taking responsibility for maintaining the war the Russians started?

Where is the Russian responsibility for stopping the killing?
What does our concern matter either way? Who cares what should happen at this point, it comes down to a simple issue, does Ukraine want to keep fighting? If they think they can outlast Russia then I guess go for it.
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FIDO_Ags
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In reply to samurai_science • 11:30a, 5/25/25
And they are.
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FIDO_Ags
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In reply to Funky Winkerbean • 11:33a, 5/25/25
Here's a question for the Ukraine should just surrender side:

Why won't Putin commit the resources to end the war more quickly? Russia has them (allegedly). Why won't Putin apply overwhelming force and just destroy the Ukrainian army in the field?
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J. Walter Weatherman
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In reply to Funky Winkerbean • 11:43a, 5/25/25
Funky Winkerbean said:
What's their path to victory? Where are the Ukrainians going to turn when they run out of soldiers?


What's your definition of victory for them?
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Funky Winkerbean
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In reply to J. Walter Weatherman • 11:52a, 5/25/25
J. Walter Weatherman said:
Funky Winkerbean said:
What's their path to victory? Where are the Ukrainians going to turn when they run out of soldiers?


What's your definition of victory for them?
My definition isn't relevant. The Ukrainians should have defined that by now.
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Funky Winkerbean
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 11:53a, 5/25/25
FIDO_Ags said:
Here's a question for the Ukraine should just surrender side:

Why won't Putin commit the resources to end the war more quickly? Russia has them (allegedly). Why won't Putin apply overwhelming force and just destroy the Ukrainian army in the field?
Who knows? Could be because he's managing his resources or he thinks the Ukrainians will eventually run out of their resources.
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Funky Winkerbean
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 11:54a, 5/25/25
And you haven't answered the question I posed to you. What is the Ukrainian path to victory?
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FIDO_Ags
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In reply to Funky Winkerbean • 12:00p, 5/25/25
I have literally stated that like 20 times in this thread. Ukrainians are fighting a defensive war on their territory. Russians either won't or don't have the resources to make this war shorter. It's a political war and just is just the beginning. Ukraine will bleed the Russians until the war becomes politically unteneble for Putin. At that point Ukraine gets its country back.

Now you answer my question.
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FIDO_Ags
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In reply to Funky Winkerbean • 12:03p, 5/25/25
Quote:
Who knows? Could be because he's managing his resources or he thinks the Ukrainians will eventually run out of their resources.


And maybe that's what the Ukrainians are doing since Russia hasn't done any more to demonstrate they can take what Putin's is asking for.
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Funky Winkerbean
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 12:13p, 5/25/25
But Putin has people. One huge resource advantage over Ukraine and this gives him time.
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nortex97
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In reply to Funky Winkerbean • 12:16p, 5/25/25
Funky Winkerbean said:
But Putin has people. One huge resource advantage over Ukraine and this gives him time.

It's really not just the people. This has enriched his friends a lot.
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Funky Winkerbean
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 12:16p, 5/25/25
What question have I not answered?
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Funky Winkerbean
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In reply to nortex97 • 12:17p, 5/25/25
Citizens..soldiers.
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Funky Winkerbean
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 12:20p, 5/25/25
FIDO_Ags said:
I have literally stated that like 20 times in this thread. Ukrainians are fighting a defensive war on their territory. Russians either won't or don't have the resources to make this war shorter. It's a political war and just is just the beginning. Ukraine will bleed the Russians until the war becomes politically unteneble for Putin. At that point Ukraine gets its country back.

Now you answer my question.
My point is that Ukraine doesn't have the resources to "bleed" them out. No nations have insinuated they will provide troops and will just continue to provide weapons. Without people, the weapons become useless.
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FIDO_Ags
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In reply to Funky Winkerbean • 12:30p, 5/25/25
There is no more evidence of that than there is that the Russians can destroy the Ukrainian Army in the field.
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to Teslag • 12:46p, 5/25/25
You said: "Nearly everyone, including myself and those Ukrainian leaders, realize that Ukraine will realistically have to give lands under Russian control for peace."

As I just demonstrated, the one making the decisions for Ukraine (Zelensky) has not realized that yet. The war will continue at least until he realizes what even you now admit to be true. Which is the same thing I've been saying from the outset: Ukraine will have to lose land before this is over.
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 12:51p, 5/25/25
FIDO_Ags said:
The fascination aspect of your reasoning is that the Ukrainians should just accept the Russian terms just so the killing can stop.

Why are you so concerned with the Ukrainians taking responsibility for maintaining the war the Russians started?

Where is the Russian responsibility for stopping the killing?


Wars end when 1 of 2 conditions are met: complete annihilation of the defeated, or surrender by the defeated in terms acceptable to the victor.

I have said multiple times, and it still appears to be true, Russia is going until Ukraine calls uncle. The sooner Ukraine does that, the more lives are saved.

"Russia could end this today and go home" has always been an unserious proposition. Its not going to happen.
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J. Walter Weatherman
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In reply to Funky Winkerbean • 12:53p, 5/25/25
It doesn't matter what anyone here thinks given that this is just an internet message board. But you're implying they can't reach whatever "victory" means to you, so I'm trying to figure out what you mean by that. To me if Ukraine still exists after being invaded by a neighbor 3x their size with a massive resource advantage, even if they have to give up a portion of the eastern part of the country, I think everyone left there will consider that a victory. And that's definitely attainable.
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FIDO_Ags
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 12:55p, 5/25/25
Quote:
Wars end when 1 of 2 conditions are met: complete annihilation of the defeated, or surrender by the defeated in terms acceptable to the victor.


3. Either party may no longer have the political will.

And at any rate, Russia hasn't demonstrated they could do 1 or 2 yet anyway.
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Teslag
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 12:55p, 5/25/25
I've been saying Ukraine will have to cede Russian held land for two years now and freeze along the current lines, lines that haven't materially changed in 3 years. Which is why it's ludicrous for Russia to demand that Ukraine cede millions of Ukrainians and land to Russia that Russia can't take in the next 50 years at the rate of current movement.

Everyone largely agrees with that, probably even Zelenskyy privately. One country and leader does not.
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FIDO_Ags
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12:57p, 5/25/25
Quote:
To me if Ukraine still exists after being invaded by a neighbor 3x their size with a massive resource advantage, even if they have to give up a portion of the eastern part of the country, I think everyone left there will consider that a victory. And that's definitely attainable.


This is the way.
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Teslag
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 12:57p, 5/25/25
Quote:
Russia is going until Ukraine calls uncle.


It's good you finally agree that Russia is the aggressor and they alone can stop this war that no one wants but them.
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 1:18p, 5/25/25
FIDO_Ags said:
Quote:
Wars end when 1 of 2 conditions are met: complete annihilation of the defeated, or surrender by the defeated in terms acceptable to the victor.


3. Either party may no longer have the political will.

And at any rate, Russia hasn't demonstrated they could do 1 or 2 yet anyway.


Russia cannot do 1 tomorrow, but with enough time I fear they would.

2 is completely up to Ukraine. Obviously Russia cannot surrender on behalf of Ukraine.

Your description of 3 is incomplete, and frankly irrelevant. If Ukraine loses the political will, they'll take option 2.

As for you continuing to assert Russia is close to losing the political will, its past time for you to realize you've been hoodwinked. Here's a 3 year old article peddling the same narrative: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10613069/Putins-forces-able-fight-14-days-military-experts-say.html
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to Teslag • 1:19p, 5/25/25
Teslag said:
Quote:
Russia is going until Ukraine calls uncle.


It's good you finally agree that Russia is the aggressor and they alone can stop this war that no one wants but them.


I addressed this in the post you quoted. Be serious.

"Russia could end this today and go home" has always been an unserious proposition. Its not going to happen.
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nortex97
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1:24p, 5/25/25
Blake Allen is a die-hard Democrat partisan, but wow the impact these wars have had on our debt over the past 25+ years, even by Democrat projections as per the chart by Clinton. There was, amazingly, a relatively modern time when even Democrats cared (or at least publicly claimed to) about our fiscal state and borders.

Aside, as Putin has refrained from attacking Zelensky directly/personally by agreement since the war started, I am curious if this might now change.
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Teslag
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 1:29p, 5/25/25
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Teslag said:
Quote:
Russia is going until Ukraine calls uncle.


It's good you finally agree that Russia is the aggressor and they alone can stop this war that no one wants but them.


I addressed this in the post you quoted. Be serious.

"Russia could end this today and go home" has always been an unserious proposition. Its not going to happen.


Just as unserious as expecting Ukrainians to surrender without a fight. Or Russia will their way to victory, something they haven't done in an offensive war in over 100 years.
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Funky Winkerbean
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In reply to FIDO_Ags • 1:30p, 5/25/25
FIDO_Ags said:
There is no more evidence of that than there is that the Russians can destroy the Ukrainian Army in the field.
The evidence is everywhere, you just refuse to consider it.
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