Can't decide what's funnier, the fact that every post jaborch99 has made on here is clearly written by AI or that a bunch of boomers are wasting time passionately arguing with the machine
The Gaza debate
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Last: 7 hrs ago by Who?mikejones!
Zobel said:
Can't decide what's funnier, the fact that every post jaborch99 has made on here is clearly written by AI or that a bunch of boomers are wasting time passionately arguing with the machine
Who are the boomers? Be specific.
Sounds like an ad hom to me.
As a thought experiment, if a ceasefire were implemented today, what would Hamas' immediate response be?
If you answered anything other than "begin plotting how to provoke Israel," you missed it.
They know they can't beat Israel militarily. But they play naive Western sympathies like a fiddle. Their long campaign of eroding support for Israel has made steady progress.
You can make peace with someone who wants peace.
You can even make peace with someone who doesn't want peace by appealing to their higher priorities - their family, their property, their self-interests, their morality.
You can't make peace with someone who has no higher priority than destroying you. And here is a hint - if a man uses his own wife and children as shields, he isn't interested in peace.
If you answered anything other than "begin plotting how to provoke Israel," you missed it.
They know they can't beat Israel militarily. But they play naive Western sympathies like a fiddle. Their long campaign of eroding support for Israel has made steady progress.
You can make peace with someone who wants peace.
You can even make peace with someone who doesn't want peace by appealing to their higher priorities - their family, their property, their self-interests, their morality.
You can't make peace with someone who has no higher priority than destroying you. And here is a hint - if a man uses his own wife and children as shields, he isn't interested in peace.
sam callahan said:Quote:
Egypt and Qatar have dragged Hamas to the table before - 2014, 2021
That would be such a great point, if only Hamas didnt spend the subsequent years building up tunnels, plannng, and executing the biggest terrorist attack in Israel's history.
A point we should all agree on is the only way the people of Gaza stand a chance is for Hamas to be stripped of power. You think that can be done through diplomacy. I don't. Diplomacy requires some kind of shared values or common ground. We want peace and we have humanitarian concerns. Hamas wants neither. aTmAg thinks they care about their own lives, I don't even think that is true.
To act as if Israel has made no impact on Hamas is completely misleading. It hasnt been 22 months of no progress. I know Israel is famous for a 7 day war, but have you seen how long wars last?
You want a geopolitcal play - pressure and support Egypt to allow refugees out of Gaza. Let the innocents get out with as heavy of vetting and tracking as possible. Start working your rehabilitation efforts and deprogramming right away because that will be damn near impossible task so you better throw everything at it.
Then take off the IDF handcuffs and let them clean the place out.
Involve vetted Palestinians in the rebuild, particularly ones living in Israel that have culturally adapted.
All that sound impossible and astronomically expensive? Probably so.
So we can either do what we have been doing and that is micromanaging unstable ceasefires prolonging the suffering, growing the hate and repeating an endless cycle...or we let one side wipe out the other and grow the f up and accept the horrors of war that go along with that.
You'll like this interview. He says Israel should have stopped the war 6 months ago. Note he doesn't say it will be a longterm solution.
You're not wrong - Hamas used past ceasefires to rearm and plan 10/7. They're a terrorist cancer, and nobody's shedding tears for their tunnels. But acting like Israel has made some grand dent in them after 20 months is a stretch. Hamas is still firing rockets, still holding hostages, still breathing. Why? Because bombing Gaza to rubble doesn't kill an ideologyit fuels it.
Your "let Egypt take refugees, then let the IDF loose" plan sounds like a geopolitical fanfic. Egypt isn't opening its borders wide - they've got their own problems and don't want Hamas's chaos spilling over. And "clean the place out"? You mean turn Gaza into a parking lot? That's not a strategy; it's a war crime dressed up as a solution. 60% of Gazans want a two-state solution, not endless jihad. You don't win by wiping them out - you win by giving them a reason to ditch Hamas.
Diplomacy isn't about holding hands with terrorists; it's about starving them. Squeeze Iran's cash flow, freeze Hamas's assets in Qatar, and back Palestinian elections to replace them with leaders who aren't suicidal. Pair that with controlled aid to feed people, not tunnels. It's not perfect, but it's smarter than your "unleash hell" plan, which just guarantees more hate, more wars, and more dead kids.
Boomer is as boomer does
So you're just baselessly attacking people. Got it.
Quote:
What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine.
Well established the "famine" is the result of Hamas, not Israel.
Wiped out neighborhoods filled with houses rigged with IEDs put in by Hamas?
Which wars have had more palatable civilian to combatant death ratios? And do you place no blame on Hamas for their war crimes in putting those civilians at risk?
MosesHallEnforcer said:
I'm not a supporter of Palestine or anything, and hope Hamas is eradicated permanently. But it's hard to listen to stuff like this and not feel deep sadness.
This a retired green beret that was recruited for the humanitarian aid organization we're funding. It's worth a listen and he seems very sincere and credible.
He outlines all the violations of the Geneva convention, and things he saw and recorded as helping an aid organization that seems very corrupt and incompetent.
Idf reserves firing indiscriminately into crowds at the aid locations trying to get food killing tons of innocents daily.
https://tuckercarlson.com/tucker-show-anthony-agular
Thanks for the link. That interview is gut-wrenching, and it lines up with what NGOs like Oxfam have been screaming about: Gaza is a humanitarian disaster, with civilians getting mowed down in the chaos. The story of IDF reserves firing into crowds at aid drops is horrifying, and it's not just one guy - reports from Action on Armed Violence (2024) confirm sky-high civilian deaths around aid distribution. Hamas stealing aid to sell or hoard? That's real too, and it's disgusting.
But BOTH sides are making this worse. Hamas uses starvation as propaganda and human shields as strategy - pure evil. Israel's blockade and indiscriminate strikes, though? That's not "precision"; it's a meat grinder for innocents. Nobody gets a pass here. If you want Hamas gone, you don't do it by turning aid drops into kill zones or starving kids. Push for secure aid channels with neutral oversight, squeeze Hamas's funding through Iran and Qatar, and back a political process to give Gazans an alternative. Anything else just keeps the nightmare going. Sadness is right, but has to fuel smarter moves, not just more bombs.
Sorry is boomer an insult? Boomers might take offense to that.
jaborch99 said:sam callahan said:Quote:
Egypt and Qatar have dragged Hamas to the table before - 2014, 2021
That would be such a great point, if only Hamas didnt spend the subsequent years building up tunnels, plannng, and executing the biggest terrorist attack in Israel's history.
A point we should all agree on is the only way the people of Gaza stand a chance is for Hamas to be stripped of power. You think that can be done through diplomacy. I don't. Diplomacy requires some kind of shared values or common ground. We want peace and we have humanitarian concerns. Hamas wants neither. aTmAg thinks they care about their own lives, I don't even think that is true.
To act as if Israel has made no impact on Hamas is completely misleading. It hasnt been 22 months of no progress. I know Israel is famous for a 7 day war, but have you seen how long wars last?
You want a geopolitcal play - pressure and support Egypt to allow refugees out of Gaza. Let the innocents get out with as heavy of vetting and tracking as possible. Start working your rehabilitation efforts and deprogramming right away because that will be damn near impossible task so you better throw everything at it.
Then take off the IDF handcuffs and let them clean the place out.
Involve vetted Palestinians in the rebuild, particularly ones living in Israel that have culturally adapted.
All that sound impossible and astronomically expensive? Probably so.
So we can either do what we have been doing and that is micromanaging unstable ceasefires prolonging the suffering, growing the hate and repeating an endless cycle...or we let one side wipe out the other and grow the f up and accept the horrors of war that go along with that.
You'll like this interview. He says Israel should have stopped the war 6 months ago. Note he doesn't say it will be a longterm solution.
You're not wrong - Hamas used past ceasefires to rearm and plan 10/7. They're a terrorist cancer, and nobody's shedding tears for their tunnels. But acting like Israel has made some grand dent in them after 20 months is a stretch. Hamas is still firing rockets, still holding hostages, still breathing. Why? Because bombing Gaza to rubble doesn't kill an ideologyit fuels it.
Your "let Egypt take refugees, then let the IDF loose" plan sounds like a geopolitical fanfic. Egypt isn't opening its borders wide - they've got their own problems and don't want Hamas's chaos spilling over. And "clean the place out"? You mean turn Gaza into a parking lot? That's not a strategy; it's a war crime dressed up as a solution. 60% of Gazans want a two-state solution, not endless jihad. You don't win by wiping them out - you win by giving them a reason to ditch Hamas.
Diplomacy isn't about holding hands with terrorists; it's about starving them. Squeeze Iran's cash flow, freeze Hamas's assets in Qatar, and back Palestinian elections to replace them with leaders who aren't suicidal. Pair that with controlled aid to feed people, not tunnels. It's not perfect, but it's smarter than your "unleash hell" plan, which just guarantees more hate, more wars, and more dead kids.
Sorry Mr. AI guy, but you are blasting out assertions with nothing to back them up. Israel needs to continue the war until Hamas surrenders unconditionally or Israel believes they've done enough. There is nothing they can do to make Palestinians hate them more than they already do. Gaza started the war and they will continue to pay the price.
jaborch99 said:Tom Fox said:
It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.
If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.
What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.
You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.
If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.
Hamas hiding in civilian areas, building bases under hospitals and schools, holding on to hostages and refusing to lay down arms and surrender has destroyed residential areas and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Hamas can end the suffering tomorrow by surrendering and releasing the hostages. If Israel stops attacking tomorrow and leaves Hamas in power, they will not get their hostages back and the suffering will continue for decades because Hamas will keep teaching their kids to want to kill jews and will quickly go back to building weapons to attack Israel with. How many past cease fires with Hamas did they have? How many did Hamas break by launching rockets or attacking across the border? Why on earth do you keep thinking there is any value to Israel to be gained from a cease fire that leaves Hamas intact and in power?
We probably couldn't put enough pressure on Egypt to take refugees.
It's funny how you can acknowledge the shortcomings of diplomacy in that instance, when you can't in a situation with far less leverage and far greater challenges.
So both our plans are delusional. I'm just honest enough to admit it.
It's funny how you can acknowledge the shortcomings of diplomacy in that instance, when you can't in a situation with far less leverage and far greater challenges.
So both our plans are delusional. I'm just honest enough to admit it.
Phatbob said:
The point is that "giving peace a chance" is never going to work with a population that is more than 1/3 supportive of Hamas. I realize that it sure sucks for the other 2/3, but that is an internal problem, not something that can be solved by Israel "planting olive trees". There is a deep rooted problem in their culture, which is perpetuated by their current situation, but is not going to go away by ignoring it. It is not Israels, or anyone else's, job to fix another culture for them when they can't get along with anyone and they destroy their own future. Some cultures (not saying people, cultures) need to die because they are destructive. Trying to save it doesn't help anyone and is just enabling a death culture.
When there is that level of tolerance destructive behavior in their own neighborhoods, in their own culture, there is nothing anyone outside of it can do to fix it. When it is so destructive that it tries to destroy others, it needs to suffer the consequences of it so that it is either changed, or goes away completely. It looks like they haven't gone far enough yet to change internally, so the process needs to keep going.
You're hung up on that 35-40% Hamas support like it's the whole story. Yes, it's bad - Hamas is a terrorist outfit, and that many people backing them is ugly. But saying their entire culture needs to "die" or get crushed isn't a plan. It's just dark, lazy nonsense. You're talking about millions of folks, half of them kids who didn't choose Hamas, like they're all one big evil blob.
This isn't about some inherent "death culture." Hamas didn't pop up because Palestinians are born bad - it's decades of war, blockades, and no hope that gave them a megaphone. I'll say it again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state deal. That's not a people begging for a fight; that's people desperate for something better. You don't fix a messed-up culture by bombing it to dust - that's how you make it worse. Look at Iraq or Afghanistan: blowing stuff up didn't kill bad ideas; it made more of them.
Israel doesn't have to play therapist, but they're not clean here either. The blockade is starving people, and IDF is apparently shooting at aid drops. That isn't hitting Hamas; it's screwing civilians and keeping the cycle going. If you want that Hamas support to drop, give people a reason to turn on them: get food and medicine in without arming terrorists, push for elections to swap out Hamas for leaders who aren't lunatics, and lean on Iran and Qatar to cut their money. That's not coddling - it's choking out Hamas' playbook.
"Let it burn" is just signing up for more blood, more hate, and another Hamas down the road. That's not tough. It's just giving up.
sam callahan said:
As a thought experiment, if a ceasefire were implemented today, what would Hamas' immediate response be?
If you answered anything other than "begin plotting how to provoke Israel," you missed it.
They know they can't beat Israel militarily. But they play naive Western sympathies like a fiddle. Their long campaign of eroding support for Israel has made steady progress.
You can make peace with someone who wants peace.
You can even make peace with someone who doesn't want peace by appealing to their higher priorities - their family, their property, their self-interests, their morality.
You can't make peace with someone who has no higher priority than destroying you. And here is a hint - if a man uses his own wife and children as shields, he isn't interested in peace.
I have no doubt that Hamas would use a ceasefire to regroup and plot. They're terrorists. They've done it before, and 10/7 proved they're hell-bent on chaos. But you're missing the bigger picture: bombing Gaza for 20 months hasn't killed them off either. They're still shooting rockets, still holding hostages. Why? Because leveling neighborhoods doesn't kill their ideas - it makes martyrs.
The famine? Hamas steals aid, hoards it, sells it. Again, they're pure scum. But don't kid yourself: Israel's blockade is a big part of why Oxfam is screaming about starvation. IDF firing on aid crowds and killing civilians isn't just reported by one isolated person, either. That's a policy choice to screw the innocent. Both sides are dirty here.
You say you can't make peace with someone who wants you dead. Fair enough. So don't negotiate with Hamas - starve them out. Cut Iran's funding, freeze their cash in Qatar, push elections to get leaders who aren't suicidal. Get food to people so they don't see Hamas as their only shot. Your "wipe them out" plan sounds tough, but it's not working (20 months...Hamas still breathing). Compare that to wars like Iraq20 years, thousands of dead, and we got ISIS. You want better civilian-to-combatant ratios? Then stop cheering tactics that bury kids in rubble. My plan probably isn't perfect, but it's smarter than signing up for endless hate and bodies.
93MarineHorn said:jaborch99 said:sam callahan said:Quote:
Egypt and Qatar have dragged Hamas to the table before - 2014, 2021
That would be such a great point, if only Hamas didnt spend the subsequent years building up tunnels, plannng, and executing the biggest terrorist attack in Israel's history.
A point we should all agree on is the only way the people of Gaza stand a chance is for Hamas to be stripped of power. You think that can be done through diplomacy. I don't. Diplomacy requires some kind of shared values or common ground. We want peace and we have humanitarian concerns. Hamas wants neither. aTmAg thinks they care about their own lives, I don't even think that is true.
To act as if Israel has made no impact on Hamas is completely misleading. It hasnt been 22 months of no progress. I know Israel is famous for a 7 day war, but have you seen how long wars last?
You want a geopolitcal play - pressure and support Egypt to allow refugees out of Gaza. Let the innocents get out with as heavy of vetting and tracking as possible. Start working your rehabilitation efforts and deprogramming right away because that will be damn near impossible task so you better throw everything at it.
Then take off the IDF handcuffs and let them clean the place out.
Involve vetted Palestinians in the rebuild, particularly ones living in Israel that have culturally adapted.
All that sound impossible and astronomically expensive? Probably so.
So we can either do what we have been doing and that is micromanaging unstable ceasefires prolonging the suffering, growing the hate and repeating an endless cycle...or we let one side wipe out the other and grow the f up and accept the horrors of war that go along with that.
You'll like this interview. He says Israel should have stopped the war 6 months ago. Note he doesn't say it will be a longterm solution.
You're not wrong - Hamas used past ceasefires to rearm and plan 10/7. They're a terrorist cancer, and nobody's shedding tears for their tunnels. But acting like Israel has made some grand dent in them after 20 months is a stretch. Hamas is still firing rockets, still holding hostages, still breathing. Why? Because bombing Gaza to rubble doesn't kill an ideologyit fuels it.
Your "let Egypt take refugees, then let the IDF loose" plan sounds like a geopolitical fanfic. Egypt isn't opening its borders wide - they've got their own problems and don't want Hamas's chaos spilling over. And "clean the place out"? You mean turn Gaza into a parking lot? That's not a strategy; it's a war crime dressed up as a solution. 60% of Gazans want a two-state solution, not endless jihad. You don't win by wiping them out - you win by giving them a reason to ditch Hamas.
Diplomacy isn't about holding hands with terrorists; it's about starving them. Squeeze Iran's cash flow, freeze Hamas's assets in Qatar, and back Palestinian elections to replace them with leaders who aren't suicidal. Pair that with controlled aid to feed people, not tunnels. It's not perfect, but it's smarter than your "unleash hell" plan, which just guarantees more hate, more wars, and more dead kids.
Sorry Mr. AI guy, but you are blasting out assertions with nothing to back them up. Israel needs to continue the war until Hamas surrenders unconditionally or Israel believes they've done enough. There is nothing they can do to make Palestinians hate them more than they already do. Gaza started the war and they will continue to pay the price.
You seem to have missed some of my previous posts. Consider this: 2024 PCPSR polls show 60% of Gazans want a two-state deal and Hamas support is at 35%. Oxfam has issued famine warnings, and Action on Armed Violence says IDF is firing at aid drops, killing civilians. That's not me making stuff up - that's the ground truth.
You think Palestinians can't hate more? Keep bombing schools and starving kids - hate grows fast. Gaza didn't "start the war"; Hamas did. Blaming every civilian for 10/7 is like blaming every American for a school shooter.
Unconditional surrender is a pipe dream. So choke them out: cut Iran's cash, pressure Qatar, get aid to folks so they don't lean on Hamas, and push elections to ditch them. Iraq, Afghanistan - endless war just breeds more bad guys. You want Israel safe? Stop betting on a strategy that's failing.
jaborch99 said:Phatbob said:
The point is that "giving peace a chance" is never going to work with a population that is more than 1/3 supportive of Hamas. I realize that it sure sucks for the other 2/3, but that is an internal problem, not something that can be solved by Israel "planting olive trees". There is a deep rooted problem in their culture, which is perpetuated by their current situation, but is not going to go away by ignoring it. It is not Israels, or anyone else's, job to fix another culture for them when they can't get along with anyone and they destroy their own future. Some cultures (not saying people, cultures) need to die because they are destructive. Trying to save it doesn't help anyone and is just enabling a death culture.
When there is that level of tolerance destructive behavior in their own neighborhoods, in their own culture, there is nothing anyone outside of it can do to fix it. When it is so destructive that it tries to destroy others, it needs to suffer the consequences of it so that it is either changed, or goes away completely. It looks like they haven't gone far enough yet to change internally, so the process needs to keep going.
The blockade is starving people, and IDF is apparently shooting at aid drops.
I keep seeing the lefties say things definitive like this, and I would like to see your evidence for it. There is no indication from anything I have seen that IDF is deliberately targeting civilians trying to obtain aid. They have attacked armed people trying to steal aid and may have accidentally killed civilians in collateral damage incidents, but you guys keep saying they are shooting civilians indiscriminately and I just don't think that is true at all. And no, the words of a disgruntled former green beret fired for misconduct who is trying to hurt his former employer don't count as factual evidence.
jaborch99 said:Tom Fox said:
It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.
If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.
What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.
You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.
If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.
I went to Iraq 3 times. If you think we were engaged in total war, god help you. The last time you witnessed total war was in the 1940s.
jaborch99 said:Phatbob said:
The point is that "giving peace a chance" is never going to work with a population that is more than 1/3 supportive of Hamas. I realize that it sure sucks for the other 2/3, but that is an internal problem, not something that can be solved by Israel "planting olive trees". There is a deep rooted problem in their culture, which is perpetuated by their current situation, but is not going to go away by ignoring it. It is not Israels, or anyone else's, job to fix another culture for them when they can't get along with anyone and they destroy their own future. Some cultures (not saying people, cultures) need to die because they are destructive. Trying to save it doesn't help anyone and is just enabling a death culture.
When there is that level of tolerance destructive behavior in their own neighborhoods, in their own culture, there is nothing anyone outside of it can do to fix it. When it is so destructive that it tries to destroy others, it needs to suffer the consequences of it so that it is either changed, or goes away completely. It looks like they haven't gone far enough yet to change internally, so the process needs to keep going.
You're hung up on that 35-40% Hamas support like it's the whole story. Yes, it's bad - Hamas is a terrorist outfit, and that many people backing them is ugly. But saying their entire culture needs to "die" or get crushed isn't a plan. It's just dark, lazy nonsense. You're talking about millions of folks, half of them kids who didn't choose Hamas, like they're all one big evil blob.
This isn't about some inherent "death culture." Hamas didn't pop up because Palestinians are born bad - it's decades of war, blockades, and no hope that gave them a megaphone. I'll say it again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state deal. That's not a people begging for a fight; that's people desperate for something better. You don't fix a messed-up culture by bombing it to dust - that's how you make it worse. Look at Iraq or Afghanistan: blowing stuff up didn't kill bad ideas; it made more of them.
Israel doesn't have to play therapist, but they're not clean here either. The blockade is starving people, and IDF is apparently shooting at aid drops. That isn't hitting Hamas; it's screwing civilians and keeping the cycle going. If you want that Hamas support to drop, give people a reason to turn on them: get food and medicine in without arming terrorists, push for elections to swap out Hamas for leaders who aren't lunatics, and lean on Iran and Qatar to cut their money. That's not coddling - it's choking out Hamas' playbook.
"Let it burn" is just signing up for more blood, more hate, and another Hamas down the road. That's not tough. It's just giving up.
You do know what culture is, right? By definition, if it is a culture that supports that level of death and destruction, then yes, it needs to die. If you want it to be bloodless, it has to be internal. That obviously isn't happening. No one can force it to be without there being dead civilians. Is it sad? yes. Is it necessary? yes. Something has to change, either one or the other has to die or change. When changing isn't an option, then dying is the only option available.
Your examples of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gaza up to this point are not backing up your claims. They were never "pounded into dust." We were selectively trying to change parts of a culture (government is part of that) through military action. If they actually had pounded them into dust, they would not be problems anymore.
jaborch99 said:Phatbob said:
The point is that "giving peace a chance" is never going to work with a population that is more than 1/3 supportive of Hamas. I realize that it sure sucks for the other 2/3, but that is an internal problem, not something that can be solved by Israel "planting olive trees". There is a deep rooted problem in their culture, which is perpetuated by their current situation, but is not going to go away by ignoring it. It is not Israels, or anyone else's, job to fix another culture for them when they can't get along with anyone and they destroy their own future. Some cultures (not saying people, cultures) need to die because they are destructive. Trying to save it doesn't help anyone and is just enabling a death culture.
When there is that level of tolerance destructive behavior in their own neighborhoods, in their own culture, there is nothing anyone outside of it can do to fix it. When it is so destructive that it tries to destroy others, it needs to suffer the consequences of it so that it is either changed, or goes away completely. It looks like they haven't gone far enough yet to change internally, so the process needs to keep going.
You're hung up on that 35-40% Hamas support like it's the whole story. Yes, it's bad - Hamas is a terrorist outfit, and that many people backing them is ugly. But saying their entire culture needs to "die" or get crushed isn't a plan. It's just dark, lazy nonsense. You're talking about millions of folks, half of them kids who didn't choose Hamas, like they're all one big evil blob.
This isn't about some inherent "death culture." Hamas didn't pop up because Palestinians are born bad - it's decades of war, blockades, and no hope that gave them a megaphone. I'll say it again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state deal. That's not a people begging for a fight; that's people desperate for something better. You don't fix a messed-up culture by bombing it to dust - that's how you make it worse. Look at Iraq or Afghanistan: blowing stuff up didn't kill bad ideas; it made more of them.
Israel doesn't have to play therapist, but they're not clean here either. The blockade is starving people, and IDF is apparently shooting at aid drops. That isn't hitting Hamas; it's screwing civilians and keeping the cycle going. If you want that Hamas support to drop, give people a reason to turn on them: get food and medicine in without arming terrorists, push for elections to swap out Hamas for leaders who aren't lunatics, and lean on Iran and Qatar to cut their money. That's not coddling - it's choking out Hamas' playbook.
"Let it burn" is just signing up for more blood, more hate, and another Hamas down the road. That's not tough. It's just giving up.
Release the hostages
txags92 said:jaborch99 said:Tom Fox said:
It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.
If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.
What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.
You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.
If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.
Hamas hiding in civilian areas, building bases under hospitals and schools, holding on to hostages and refusing to lay down arms and surrender has destroyed residential areas and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Hamas can end the suffering tomorrow by surrendering and releasing the hostages. If Israel stops attacking tomorrow and leaves Hamas in power, they will not get their hostages back and the suffering will continue for decades because Hamas will keep teaching their kids to want to kill jews and will quickly go back to building weapons to attack Israel with. How many past cease fires with Hamas did they have? How many did Hamas break by launching rockets or attacking across the border? Why on earth do you keep thinking there is any value to Israel to be gained from a cease fire that leaves Hamas intact and in power?
Hamas is evil. I've been very consistent and blunt about that throughout this thread. They've trashed every ceasefire. No one's saying Israel should send them flowers. But 20 months of turning Gaza into a crater hasn't made Hamas quit. Why? Because bombs don't kill their pitch - they make it louder.
Yes ... Hamas steals aid, but Israel's blockade, strangling food and fuel, is why Oxfam is screaming about famine. IDF shooting at aid crowds? That's not Hamas's fault - that's a call that's killing civilians. Both sides are fueling this disaster.
I'm not pushing a lovey-dovey ceasefire. Hamas in power is a dealbreaker. So hit them where it hurts: cut Iran's money, freeze their accounts in Qatar, get food to people so Hamas isn't their lifeline, and back elections to kick them out. That's not trusting terrorists; it's making them useless. The "keep bombing" plan has been tried for 20 months and hasn't worked. Iraq & Afghanistan went decades and got us more terrorists. You want Israel to win? Try a plan that doesn't set up another 10/7.
That ain't gonna work.
The both sides are dirty here argument is like me saying "Well Sinaloa and this 17 year old suburbanan boy who sold a joint to his buddy both deal drugs, so that's a wash"
Yes. The IDF has misdeeds on its sheet. But you are crazy if you think there is widespread plunking of civilians for fun at food drop off sites. You have 20 year old grunts in the worlds most dangerous place and they have huge targets on their backs and the people they are trying to help hate them. I'd be quick on the trigger too.
Of course your ideas fail reality checks. You cant even tell who the bad guys are.
Yes. The IDF has misdeeds on its sheet. But you are crazy if you think there is widespread plunking of civilians for fun at food drop off sites. You have 20 year old grunts in the worlds most dangerous place and they have huge targets on their backs and the people they are trying to help hate them. I'd be quick on the trigger too.
Of course your ideas fail reality checks. You cant even tell who the bad guys are.
jaborch99 said:txags92 said:jaborch99 said:Tom Fox said:
It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.
If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.
What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.
You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.
If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.
Hamas hiding in civilian areas, building bases under hospitals and schools, holding on to hostages and refusing to lay down arms and surrender has destroyed residential areas and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Hamas can end the suffering tomorrow by surrendering and releasing the hostages. If Israel stops attacking tomorrow and leaves Hamas in power, they will not get their hostages back and the suffering will continue for decades because Hamas will keep teaching their kids to want to kill jews and will quickly go back to building weapons to attack Israel with. How many past cease fires with Hamas did they have? How many did Hamas break by launching rockets or attacking across the border? Why on earth do you keep thinking there is any value to Israel to be gained from a cease fire that leaves Hamas intact and in power?
Hamas is evil. I've been very consistent and blunt about that throughout this thread. They've trashed every ceasefire. No one's saying Israel should send them flowers. But 20 months of turning Gaza into a crater hasn't made Hamas quit. Why? Because bombs don't kill their pitch - they make it louder.
Yes ... Hamas steals aid, but Israel's blockade, strangling food and fuel, is why Oxfam is screaming about famine. IDF shooting at aid crowds? That's not Hamas's fault - that's a call that's killing civilians. Both sides are fueling this disaster.
I'm not pushing a lovey-dovey ceasefire. Hamas in power is a dealbreaker. So hit them where it hurts: cut Iran's money, freeze their accounts in Qatar, get food to people so Hamas isn't their lifeline, and back elections to kick them out. That's not trusting terrorists; it's making them useless. The "keep bombing" plan has been tried for 20 months and hasn't worked. Iraq & Afghanistan went decades and got us more terrorists. You want Israel to win? Try a plan that doesn't set up another 10/7.
And again you resort to stating this as fact. Show me factual evidence that IDF is deliberately targeting civilians seeking aid.
Quote:
I'm not pushing a lovey-dovey ceasefire. Hamas in power is a dealbreaker
So who are you making this deal with?
A two state solution with one of the states based on eliminating the other one will never work. The culture needs to die, not get its own state. Your proposed solutions have been tried for decades and gotten no where. If your assertion that Hamas' support has gone down to where they won't be in power for long, then the current Israeli strategy is working, and should be allowed to take its course to where the only option available to Gaza is to ditch Hamas completely and stop the culture of death.
txags92 said:jaborch99 said:Phatbob said:
The point is that "giving peace a chance" is never going to work with a population that is more than 1/3 supportive of Hamas. I realize that it sure sucks for the other 2/3, but that is an internal problem, not something that can be solved by Israel "planting olive trees". There is a deep rooted problem in their culture, which is perpetuated by their current situation, but is not going to go away by ignoring it. It is not Israels, or anyone else's, job to fix another culture for them when they can't get along with anyone and they destroy their own future. Some cultures (not saying people, cultures) need to die because they are destructive. Trying to save it doesn't help anyone and is just enabling a death culture.
When there is that level of tolerance destructive behavior in their own neighborhoods, in their own culture, there is nothing anyone outside of it can do to fix it. When it is so destructive that it tries to destroy others, it needs to suffer the consequences of it so that it is either changed, or goes away completely. It looks like they haven't gone far enough yet to change internally, so the process needs to keep going.
The blockade is starving people, and IDF is apparently shooting at aid drops.
I keep seeing the lefties say things definitive like this, and I would like to see your evidence for it. There is no indication from anything I have seen that IDF is deliberately targeting civilians trying to obtain aid. They have attacked armed people trying to steal aid and may have accidentally killed civilians in collateral damage incidents, but you guys keep saying they are shooting civilians indiscriminately and I just don't think that is true at all. And no, the words of a disgruntled former green beret fired for misconduct who is trying to hurt his former employer don't count as factual evidence.
First ... no one who knows me has ever called me a lefty. It's actually kind of laughable.
How's this for evidence:
- Haaretz reported in June 2025 that IDF soldiers were ordered to fire on crowds near aid sites to "control" them, even when they posed no threat.
- The UN's human rights office says over 1,000 Palestinians have been killed since May 2025 near aid distribution points, mostly run by the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, with 766 deaths tied to IDF fire.
- CNN's investigation pinned a Rafah incident on IDF gunfire, with witnesses and video showing troops shooting at crowds.
- Action on Armed Violence has reported that civilian infrastructure, including aid sites, gets hit every three hours on average.
Hamas is a nightmare, but Israel's blockade and these shootings aren't surgical strikes on terrorists; they're crushing everyone. Oxfam's famine warnings tie the starvation crisis to the blockade, not just Hamas. My point "lefty" tears - it's that this approach keeps Hamas alive by fueling despair. Cut Iran's cash, freeze Qatar's accounts, get food to people so Hamas isn't their savior, and push elections to replace them.
Deleted due to the dreaded double-post
Phatbob said:jaborch99 said:Phatbob said:
The point is that "giving peace a chance" is never going to work with a population that is more than 1/3 supportive of Hamas. I realize that it sure sucks for the other 2/3, but that is an internal problem, not something that can be solved by Israel "planting olive trees". There is a deep rooted problem in their culture, which is perpetuated by their current situation, but is not going to go away by ignoring it. It is not Israels, or anyone else's, job to fix another culture for them when they can't get along with anyone and they destroy their own future. Some cultures (not saying people, cultures) need to die because they are destructive. Trying to save it doesn't help anyone and is just enabling a death culture.
When there is that level of tolerance destructive behavior in their own neighborhoods, in their own culture, there is nothing anyone outside of it can do to fix it. When it is so destructive that it tries to destroy others, it needs to suffer the consequences of it so that it is either changed, or goes away completely. It looks like they haven't gone far enough yet to change internally, so the process needs to keep going.
You're hung up on that 35-40% Hamas support like it's the whole story. Yes, it's bad - Hamas is a terrorist outfit, and that many people backing them is ugly. But saying their entire culture needs to "die" or get crushed isn't a plan. It's just dark, lazy nonsense. You're talking about millions of folks, half of them kids who didn't choose Hamas, like they're all one big evil blob.
This isn't about some inherent "death culture." Hamas didn't pop up because Palestinians are born bad - it's decades of war, blockades, and no hope that gave them a megaphone. I'll say it again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state deal. That's not a people begging for a fight; that's people desperate for something better. You don't fix a messed-up culture by bombing it to dust - that's how you make it worse. Look at Iraq or Afghanistan: blowing stuff up didn't kill bad ideas; it made more of them.
Israel doesn't have to play therapist, but they're not clean here either. The blockade is starving people, and IDF is apparently shooting at aid drops. That isn't hitting Hamas; it's screwing civilians and keeping the cycle going. If you want that Hamas support to drop, give people a reason to turn on them: get food and medicine in without arming terrorists, push for elections to swap out Hamas for leaders who aren't lunatics, and lean on Iran and Qatar to cut their money. That's not coddling - it's choking out Hamas' playbook.
"Let it burn" is just signing up for more blood, more hate, and another Hamas down the road. That's not tough. It's just giving up.
You do know what culture is, right? By definition, if it is a culture that supports that level of death and destruction, then yes, it needs to die. If you want it to be bloodless, it has to be internal. That obviously isn't happening. No one can force it to be without there being dead civilians. Is it sad? yes. Is it necessary? yes. Something has to change, either one or the other has to die or change. When changing isn't an option, then dying is the only option available.
Your examples of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gaza up to this point are not backing up your claims. They were never "pounded into dust." We were selectively trying to change parts of a culture (government is part of that) through military action. If they actually had pounded them into dust, they would not be problems anymore.
I do know what culture is, and yes, Hamas's death cult vibe is toxic. But saying the whole culture needs to "die" because of that? That's not a strategy; it's a tantrum. You're lumping millions, including kids who don't vote, into one evil box. Again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state solution, not jihad. That's not a culture begging for extinction - it's people stuck in a trap.
Iraq and Afghanistan weren't "pounded into dust"? Tell that to the millions displaced, the cities leveled, and the insurgencies that grew stronger. 20 years in Iraq got us ISIS; Afghanistan is back with the Taliban. Bombing doesn't kill bad ideas - it spreads them. You want change? Starve Hamas: cut their Iran cash, lean on Qatar, get aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and back elections to ditch the crazies. The "let it die" plan just means more blood and another Hamas. That's not winning - it's losing slow.
Tom Fox said:jaborch99 said:Tom Fox said:
It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.
If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.
What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.
You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.
If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.
I went to Iraq 3 times. If you think we were engaged in total war, god help you. The last time you witnessed total war was in the 1940s.
Respect for your service, but you're missing my point. I didn't say Iraq was "total war" like WWII - I said it was a failure of brute force. 20 years, thousands dead, cities wrecked, and we got ISIS, not peace. Gaza is the same: 20 months of heavy bombing, and Hamas is still there. Why? Because flattening neighborhoods doesn't kill their narrativeit fuels it.
You call it a "police action," but when Oxfam is warning of famine and Action on Armed Violence says IDF's hitting civilian infrastructure every three hours, that's a sledgehammer, not a scalpel. Israel could go full 1940s and wipe Gaza out in a weekend, sure. But that's not restraint - it's a recipe for a regional firestorm and more enemies.
jaborch99 said:Phatbob said:jaborch99 said:Phatbob said:
The point is that "giving peace a chance" is never going to work with a population that is more than 1/3 supportive of Hamas. I realize that it sure sucks for the other 2/3, but that is an internal problem, not something that can be solved by Israel "planting olive trees". There is a deep rooted problem in their culture, which is perpetuated by their current situation, but is not going to go away by ignoring it. It is not Israels, or anyone else's, job to fix another culture for them when they can't get along with anyone and they destroy their own future. Some cultures (not saying people, cultures) need to die because they are destructive. Trying to save it doesn't help anyone and is just enabling a death culture.
When there is that level of tolerance destructive behavior in their own neighborhoods, in their own culture, there is nothing anyone outside of it can do to fix it. When it is so destructive that it tries to destroy others, it needs to suffer the consequences of it so that it is either changed, or goes away completely. It looks like they haven't gone far enough yet to change internally, so the process needs to keep going.
You're hung up on that 35-40% Hamas support like it's the whole story. Yes, it's bad - Hamas is a terrorist outfit, and that many people backing them is ugly. But saying their entire culture needs to "die" or get crushed isn't a plan. It's just dark, lazy nonsense. You're talking about millions of folks, half of them kids who didn't choose Hamas, like they're all one big evil blob.
This isn't about some inherent "death culture." Hamas didn't pop up because Palestinians are born bad - it's decades of war, blockades, and no hope that gave them a megaphone. I'll say it again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state deal. That's not a people begging for a fight; that's people desperate for something better. You don't fix a messed-up culture by bombing it to dust - that's how you make it worse. Look at Iraq or Afghanistan: blowing stuff up didn't kill bad ideas; it made more of them.
Israel doesn't have to play therapist, but they're not clean here either. The blockade is starving people, and IDF is apparently shooting at aid drops. That isn't hitting Hamas; it's screwing civilians and keeping the cycle going. If you want that Hamas support to drop, give people a reason to turn on them: get food and medicine in without arming terrorists, push for elections to swap out Hamas for leaders who aren't lunatics, and lean on Iran and Qatar to cut their money. That's not coddling - it's choking out Hamas' playbook.
"Let it burn" is just signing up for more blood, more hate, and another Hamas down the road. That's not tough. It's just giving up.
You do know what culture is, right? By definition, if it is a culture that supports that level of death and destruction, then yes, it needs to die. If you want it to be bloodless, it has to be internal. That obviously isn't happening. No one can force it to be without there being dead civilians. Is it sad? yes. Is it necessary? yes. Something has to change, either one or the other has to die or change. When changing isn't an option, then dying is the only option available.
Your examples of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gaza up to this point are not backing up your claims. They were never "pounded into dust." We were selectively trying to change parts of a culture (government is part of that) through military action. If they actually had pounded them into dust, they would not be problems anymore.
I do know what culture is, and yes, Hamas's death cult vibe is toxic. But saying the whole culture needs to "die" because of that? That's not a strategy; it's a tantrum. You're lumping millions, including kids who don't vote, into one evil box. Again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state solution, not jihad. That's not a culture begging for extinction - it's people stuck in a trap.
Iraq and Afghanistan weren't "pounded into dust"? Tell that to the millions displaced, the cities leveled, and the insurgencies that grew stronger. 20 years in Iraq got us ISIS; Afghanistan is back with the Taliban. Bombing doesn't kill bad ideas - it spreads them. You want change? Starve Hamas: cut their Iran cash, lean on Qatar, get aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and back elections to ditch the crazies. The "let it die" plan just means more blood and another Hamas. That's not winning - it's losing slow.
How is Israel "losing" here? Palestinians need to be taught a lesson to never ELECT a terrorist group to run their gov't. Don't kid yourself, all Palestinians want Israel eradicated. They don't want a two state solution, they want dead Jews. There is no "getting along" with them. They need to keep paying and suffering for launching the Oct 7 attacks. They need to understand that making that kind of decision in the future is a BAD idea.
jaborch99 said:Tom Fox said:
It's cute that you think the Israelis have spent the past 20 months trying to obliterate the Palestinians. They haven't. They are making the classic police action over total war mistake the US has engaged in for the past 80 years.
If the Israelis wanted to, they could eliminate them all over a 3-day weekend.
What's cute is thinking that Israel is holding back out of some noble restraint when they've leveled entire neighborhoods and pushed Gaza to the brink of famine. Civilian deaths are over half the toll, with kids and women hit hardest. That's not a "police action" - it's a sledgehammer approach that's failing to kill Hamas but succeeding in killing hope.
You're right, Israel could go full genocide in a weekend. Congrats on the edgelord fantasy. But if you think wiping out millions would end the conflict and not ignite a regional firestorm, you're daydreaming. Again, look at Iraq and Afghanistan: "total war" didn't break the enemy's will; it created more enemies. Israel has been trying to crush Hamas for 20 months, and they're still here. Why? Because collective punishment doesn't kill terror - it feeds it.
If you want this over, stop cheering for Roman-style slaughter. Demand a strategy that disarms Hamas through pressure (cut Iran's funding, lean on Qatar), gets aid to civilians without arming terrorists, and builds a political path so Gazans have something to live for besides revenge. Anything less is just cosplaying tough while the body count grows.
The fact that you think anything even REMOTELY approaching "total war" occurred in Iraq and Afghanistan renders the rest of your views on this VERY suspect for lucidity...
We did limited police actions with the main goal being to "win the hearts and minds" and failed in both of those goals...because those will never work - they just make the enemy realize they can wait it out until their adversary gets tired of it or loses their stomach for it OR they win the propaganda war (which is what is happening in Gaza).
You don't think the IDF has shown restraint?
Wow.
And I truly would love to know who you are negotiating this ceasefire with.
Wow.
And I truly would love to know who you are negotiating this ceasefire with.
Who?mikejones! said:jaborch99 said:Phatbob said:
The point is that "giving peace a chance" is never going to work with a population that is more than 1/3 supportive of Hamas. I realize that it sure sucks for the other 2/3, but that is an internal problem, not something that can be solved by Israel "planting olive trees". There is a deep rooted problem in their culture, which is perpetuated by their current situation, but is not going to go away by ignoring it. It is not Israels, or anyone else's, job to fix another culture for them when they can't get along with anyone and they destroy their own future. Some cultures (not saying people, cultures) need to die because they are destructive. Trying to save it doesn't help anyone and is just enabling a death culture.
When there is that level of tolerance destructive behavior in their own neighborhoods, in their own culture, there is nothing anyone outside of it can do to fix it. When it is so destructive that it tries to destroy others, it needs to suffer the consequences of it so that it is either changed, or goes away completely. It looks like they haven't gone far enough yet to change internally, so the process needs to keep going.
You're hung up on that 35-40% Hamas support like it's the whole story. Yes, it's bad - Hamas is a terrorist outfit, and that many people backing them is ugly. But saying their entire culture needs to "die" or get crushed isn't a plan. It's just dark, lazy nonsense. You're talking about millions of folks, half of them kids who didn't choose Hamas, like they're all one big evil blob.
This isn't about some inherent "death culture." Hamas didn't pop up because Palestinians are born bad - it's decades of war, blockades, and no hope that gave them a megaphone. I'll say it again ... 60% of Gazans want a two-state deal. That's not a people begging for a fight; that's people desperate for something better. You don't fix a messed-up culture by bombing it to dust - that's how you make it worse. Look at Iraq or Afghanistan: blowing stuff up didn't kill bad ideas; it made more of them.
Israel doesn't have to play therapist, but they're not clean here either. The blockade is starving people, and IDF is apparently shooting at aid drops. That isn't hitting Hamas; it's screwing civilians and keeping the cycle going. If you want that Hamas support to drop, give people a reason to turn on them: get food and medicine in without arming terrorists, push for elections to swap out Hamas for leaders who aren't lunatics, and lean on Iran and Qatar to cut their money. That's not coddling - it's choking out Hamas' playbook.
"Let it burn" is just signing up for more blood, more hate, and another Hamas down the road. That's not tough. It's just giving up.
Release the hostages
100% agree. But let's be real: bombing the hell out of Gaza, including places where hostages might be, isn't exactly screaming "we care about getting them back." Also, Israel's own hostage families are begging them to stop the heavy strikes
The critics of the IDF seem to think they could have rolled into Gaza with badges, handcuffs, and stun guns and rolled in with marked police cars and arrested Hamas members over the course of a week.
You never cite historical examples of a war that was executed to your standards.
You never cite historical examples of a war that was executed to your standards.
jaborch99 said:sam callahan said:
So not one articulable actionable item.
Got it.
I think it's clear what the lazy dodge is.
You're calling for "actionable items" like I'm supposed to hand you a PowerPoint for Middle East peace. Alright, let's get specific.This isn't wishful thinking - it's a framework rooted in what's been tried, what's worked elsewhere, and what's realistic if the world stops shrugging. Hamas thrives in chaos; starve them of it by giving people a reason to reject them. Bombing alone hasn't worked in 20 months - why double down on failure? Your "military solution only" stance isn't tough; it's a recipe for more bodies and more blowback. Step up and demand better.
- Ceasefire with teeth: Push for an immediate, internationally brokered ceasefire tied to Hamas releasing all hostages and Israel halting airstrikes and ground ops. Egypt, Qatar, and the UN have mediated deals before - lean on them to enforce terms, with consequences like sanctions for non-compliance.
- Controlled humanitarian aid: Set up secure aid corridors overseen by neutral third parties (not UNRWA, given the trust issues). Use tech like blockchain for transparent tracking to ensure food and medicine reach civilians, not Hamas's tunnels. Israel gets to inspect, but no blanket blockades starving kids.
- Political transition plan: Back Palestinian elections under international oversight to replace Hamas with leaders who aren't hell-bent on martyrdom. Regional players like Jordan and Saudi Arabia can fund and legitimize moderates. Israel must commit to easing settlement expansion to show good faith.
- Economic reconstruction: Channel aid into rebuilding Gaza's infrastructure - hospitals, schools, water systems - not just rubble-clearing. Tie funding to anti-terror measures to starve Hamas's recruitment pitch. The Marshall Plan worked post-WWII; a mini-version could work here.
- Long-term diplomacy: Revive two-state talks based on pre-1967 borders with land swaps, as floated in past deals like Oslo or Camp David. It's not perfect, but it's a framework both sides have flirted with. Pressure the US govt to stop vetoing UN resolutions that hold both sides accountable.
The political transition plan is very much wishful thinking. A two state solution is not workable, because only thing unifying the second state (Palestine) in that scenario is opposition to Isreal.
"Palestine" historically is a fiction. It is a name the Romans applied to the region, but it doesn't identify a state or a people, in any real sense. Look at this 19th century map of the region:
There are no regional boundaries here; just the area that was controlled by the Ottomans and that which was not. The creation of states out of this mess is a remnant of colonialism that simply hasn't worked. In fact, in order to see some level of stability in the region, it would probably be better if all the borders between Israel and Iran (Persia) were erased and broken up into coherent governing units based upon the population. But that's a subject for a different thread.
If you want to get down to some kind of socially cohesive unit in the region of Israel/Palestine, you basically have to get down to the tribes/clans. That is where there is some possibility of working out a deal. The Isrealis are already talking to the leaders of the tribes in the West Bank, who are as fed up with Hamas AND the Palestinian authority as anyone, and are ready to resume ruling their small territories as they effectively did even back during the Ottoman Empire.
If you hold an election across a region whose only unifying tie is opposition to Israel, you are going to end up electing a government whose primary purpose is opposing Israel, even in the most democratic of elections.
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