WILD STORY 🔴
— Open Source Intel (@Osint613) July 30, 2025
Gazans were seen dumping flour just to keep the sacks.
Gazan social media is buzzing with people asking where to find Nutella. Over 100 aid trucks entered North Gaza via Zikim today, but looters prioritized grabbing high-value items like Nutella and sugar. The… pic.twitter.com/qrGndTyX6c
The Gaza debate
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Last: 7 days ago by BonfireNerd04
samurai_science said:WILD STORY 🔴
— Open Source Intel (@Osint613) July 30, 2025
Gazans were seen dumping flour just to keep the sacks.
Gazan social media is buzzing with people asking where to find Nutella. Over 100 aid trucks entered North Gaza via Zikim today, but looters prioritized grabbing high-value items like Nutella and sugar. The… pic.twitter.com/qrGndTyX6c
Sad how the evil Israelis are forcing them to dump out food they were given for free just so they can have a bag to carry their other food they were given for free. The starvation is all their fault!
/Libs
Zachary Klement said:Quote:
As more than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed seeking aid at militarized aid distribution sites run by the U.S.- and Israel-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, a former GHF security contractor tells Democracy Now! he saw U.S. mercenaries and Israeli forces commit war crimes by indiscriminately shooting at starving Palestinians waiting for aid. "What I witnessed in Gaza, I can only describe as a dystopian, post-apocalyptic wasteland," says Anthony Aguilar, a retired U.S. soldier who worked as a subcontractor with UG Solutions in the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation aid delivery operation. "We, the United States, are complicit. We are involved, hand in hand, in the atrocities and the genocide that is currently undergoing in Gaza."
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to end it there, but I want to just be very clear: You saw former U.S. military, you saw IDF, you saw the Israeli soldiers opening fire on hungry Palestinians.
ANTHONY AGUILAR: Without a doubt, yes, full stop.
https://www.democracynow.org/2025/7/29/anthony_aguilar_ghf_war_crimesQuote:
More than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces since May while trying to get food, mostly near the new aid sites run by the GHF, an American contractor, the U.N. human rights office says.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-military-says-airdrops-of-humanitarian-aid-will-begin-saturday-night-in-gaza#:~:text=More%20than%201%2C000%20Palestinians%20have,struggled%20to%20get%20enough%20food.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/7/29/live-israel-kills-92-in-gaza-in-one-day-as-death-toll-nears-60000
https://www.npr.org/2025/07/23/nx-s1-5477365/israel-gaza-aid-casualties
"I witnessed the Israeli Defense Forces shooting at the crowds of Palestinians," Anthony Aguilar told the BBC.
He added that in his entire career he has never witnessed such a level of "brutality and use of indiscriminate and unnecessary force against a civilian population, an unarmed, starving population".
He's basically saying the IDF is worse than Taliban, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc. Thats crazy
https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cy8k8045nx9o
Keyno said:Zachary Klement said:Quote:
As more than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed seeking aid at militarized aid distribution sites run by the U.S.- and Israel-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, a former GHF security contractor tells Democracy Now! he saw U.S. mercenaries and Israeli forces commit war crimes by indiscriminately shooting at starving Palestinians waiting for aid. "What I witnessed in Gaza, I can only describe as a dystopian, post-apocalyptic wasteland," says Anthony Aguilar, a retired U.S. soldier who worked as a subcontractor with UG Solutions in the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation aid delivery operation. "We, the United States, are complicit. We are involved, hand in hand, in the atrocities and the genocide that is currently undergoing in Gaza."
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to end it there, but I want to just be very clear: You saw former U.S. military, you saw IDF, you saw the Israeli soldiers opening fire on hungry Palestinians.
ANTHONY AGUILAR: Without a doubt, yes, full stop.
https://www.democracynow.org/2025/7/29/anthony_aguilar_ghf_war_crimesQuote:
More than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces since May while trying to get food, mostly near the new aid sites run by the GHF, an American contractor, the U.N. human rights office says.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-military-says-airdrops-of-humanitarian-aid-will-begin-saturday-night-in-gaza#:~:text=More%20than%201%2C000%20Palestinians%20have,struggled%20to%20get%20enough%20food.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/7/29/live-israel-kills-92-in-gaza-in-one-day-as-death-toll-nears-60000
https://www.npr.org/2025/07/23/nx-s1-5477365/israel-gaza-aid-casualties
"I witnessed the Israeli Defense Forces shooting at the crowds of Palestinians," Anthony Aguilar told the BBC.
He added that in his entire career he has never witnessed such a level of "brutality and use of indiscriminate and unnecessary force against a civilian population, an unarmed, starving population".
He's basically saying the IDF is worse than Taliban, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc. Thats crazy
https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cy8k8045nx9o
I am sure that's the whole story lol
Don't care either way
Eh. What else is in the news? Those animals had it coming.
Keyno said:Zachary Klement said:Quote:
As more than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed seeking aid at militarized aid distribution sites run by the U.S.- and Israel-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, a former GHF security contractor tells Democracy Now! he saw U.S. mercenaries and Israeli forces commit war crimes by indiscriminately shooting at starving Palestinians waiting for aid. "What I witnessed in Gaza, I can only describe as a dystopian, post-apocalyptic wasteland," says Anthony Aguilar, a retired U.S. soldier who worked as a subcontractor with UG Solutions in the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation aid delivery operation. "We, the United States, are complicit. We are involved, hand in hand, in the atrocities and the genocide that is currently undergoing in Gaza."
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to end it there, but I want to just be very clear: You saw former U.S. military, you saw IDF, you saw the Israeli soldiers opening fire on hungry Palestinians.
ANTHONY AGUILAR: Without a doubt, yes, full stop.
https://www.democracynow.org/2025/7/29/anthony_aguilar_ghf_war_crimesQuote:
More than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces since May while trying to get food, mostly near the new aid sites run by the GHF, an American contractor, the U.N. human rights office says.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-military-says-airdrops-of-humanitarian-aid-will-begin-saturday-night-in-gaza#:~:text=More%20than%201%2C000%20Palestinians%20have,struggled%20to%20get%20enough%20food.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/7/29/live-israel-kills-92-in-gaza-in-one-day-as-death-toll-nears-60000
https://www.npr.org/2025/07/23/nx-s1-5477365/israel-gaza-aid-casualties
"I witnessed the Israeli Defense Forces shooting at the crowds of Palestinians," Anthony Aguilar told the BBC.
He added that in his entire career he has never witnessed such a level of "brutality and use of indiscriminate and unnecessary force against a civilian population, an unarmed, starving population".
He's basically saying the IDF is worse than Taliban, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc. Thats crazy
https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cy8k8045nx9o
Yeah and he has been outed by GHF as a disgruntled former employee that was fired for misconduct and spent a couple of weeks begging for his job back while threatening the company before giving that interview. He worked for them for 27 days and spent more than half of it in a hotel in Israel.
4 said:
Oh, I don't know. Maybe at the very least when innocent babies and Israeli women are raped, murdered, and tortured for just breathing air.... Maybe you don't openly cheer in the streets about it?
The entire culture is evil.
Now they are crying because they have to reap the results of poking the wrong bear too many times?
Cry me a River
What I remember about the Palestinians is how they all celebrated in the streets when the Towers fell.
And their mentality has not changed.
txags92 said:Keyno said:Zachary Klement said:Quote:
As more than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed seeking aid at militarized aid distribution sites run by the U.S.- and Israel-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, a former GHF security contractor tells Democracy Now! he saw U.S. mercenaries and Israeli forces commit war crimes by indiscriminately shooting at starving Palestinians waiting for aid. "What I witnessed in Gaza, I can only describe as a dystopian, post-apocalyptic wasteland," says Anthony Aguilar, a retired U.S. soldier who worked as a subcontractor with UG Solutions in the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation aid delivery operation. "We, the United States, are complicit. We are involved, hand in hand, in the atrocities and the genocide that is currently undergoing in Gaza."
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to end it there, but I want to just be very clear: You saw former U.S. military, you saw IDF, you saw the Israeli soldiers opening fire on hungry Palestinians.
ANTHONY AGUILAR: Without a doubt, yes, full stop.
https://www.democracynow.org/2025/7/29/anthony_aguilar_ghf_war_crimesQuote:
More than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces since May while trying to get food, mostly near the new aid sites run by the GHF, an American contractor, the U.N. human rights office says.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-military-says-airdrops-of-humanitarian-aid-will-begin-saturday-night-in-gaza#:~:text=More%20than%201%2C000%20Palestinians%20have,struggled%20to%20get%20enough%20food.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/7/29/live-israel-kills-92-in-gaza-in-one-day-as-death-toll-nears-60000
https://www.npr.org/2025/07/23/nx-s1-5477365/israel-gaza-aid-casualties
"I witnessed the Israeli Defense Forces shooting at the crowds of Palestinians," Anthony Aguilar told the BBC.
He added that in his entire career he has never witnessed such a level of "brutality and use of indiscriminate and unnecessary force against a civilian population, an unarmed, starving population".
He's basically saying the IDF is worse than Taliban, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc. Thats crazy
https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cy8k8045nx9o
Yeah and he has been outed by GHF as a disgruntled former employee that was fired for misconduct and spent a couple of weeks begging for his job back while threatening the company before giving that interview. He worked for them for 27 days and spent more than half of it in a hotel in Israel.
Definitely interesting. Maybe he's lying. GHF also seems to be run by the American security firms- giving them motive to discredit him. Maybe they're lying?
APHIS AG said:4 said:
Oh, I don't know. Maybe at the very least when innocent babies and Israeli women are raped, murdered, and tortured for just breathing air.... Maybe you don't openly cheer in the streets about it?
The entire culture is evil.
Now they are crying because they have to reap the results of poking the wrong bear too many times?
Cry me a River
What I remember about the Palestinians is how they all celebrated in the streets when the Towers fell.
And their mentality has not changed.
Its 2025 and this guy doesn't know about the dancing israelis lol
Tom Fox said:2040huck said:4 said:
Move to where the food is.
Why not move to some friendly Muslim country so they can live in peace with their brothers?
Or we could give the Jews a few million acres in Montana and be done with that he11hole
Or in Mexico. We could call it Nuevo Jerusalem and put out a nice spread for them.
Nice BBT reference!
Ay, Ay, Ay Ay
Hava nagila
"Well, if you can’t have a great season, at least ruin somebody else’s." - Olin Buchanan
samurai_science said:Pumpkinhead said:
Israel has been gradually losing the war of global public opinion on this topic, a little bit more and more each day becoming the villain in this conflict. That country is eventually going to be forced to rethink its tactics and long term political strategy.
The Gaza strip is approximately 141 square miles in size. The city of Houston in comparison covers about 660 square miles (more than 4X the size of Gaza). And yet after approx. 20 months the Israeli military despite its elite training and arms has STILL has not been able to eliminate Hamas as a functional organization within that relatively small area of land. If their aggressive attack/siege approach has not yet worked after 20 months, then when? What is the end game here? Within Israel itself and its own military, there have been growing signs of fatigue. The clock is certainly ticking on this and just a question of how much longer before something has to change.
Israel does not care
Israel could have eradicated Hamas entirely in a few days if they had a mind to do it. It would have just required things that the west simply doesn't have the stomach for. So the fact that they didn't do that means they absolutely do care to at least some extent.
I have a take which might not be welcome here.
Islam and its followers are experts at deceit.
War is hell
That is all.
Islam and its followers are experts at deceit.
War is hell
That is all.
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
Israel should wipe them out old testament style. That is the only way there will ever be peace.
jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
This is a warped, perverse and immoral understanding of justice.
Again, this is no different than arguing that a murderer should go free in order to prevent the murderer's children from becoming fatherless. That is a perversion of justice. It's mindless social media pseudo compassion at its absolute worst.
There are always (at least) two things missing from these types of arguments.
1) A solution of what things should look like going forward.
2) An acknowledgment that Hamas wants the suffering of their people. It's their strongest weapon.
1) A solution of what things should look like going forward.
2) An acknowledgment that Hamas wants the suffering of their people. It's their strongest weapon.
Infection_Ag11 said:jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
This is a warped, perverse and immoral understanding of justice.
Again, this is no different than arguing that a murderer should go free in order to prevent the murderer's children from becoming fatherless. That is a perversion of justice. It's mindless social media pseudo compassion at its absolute worst.
Look, I get where you're coming from with the murderer analogyit's a gut-level kind of justice that demands punishment regardless of consequences. But that black-and-white thinking doesn't hold up when you're talking about millions of civilians trapped in a war zone, not just the guilty few.
Justice isn't about vengeance for its own sake. It's about proportionality, fairness, and protecting the innocent. Dropping collective punishment on an entire population because their government is evil doesn't make you a heroit makes you complicit in creating more hatred, more cycles of violence, and more innocent suffering.
If you really want justice, then stop cheering for policies that tear apart families, starve children, and destroy infrastructure with no clear end game except endless war. Holding people accountable is one thing. Blaming an entire population and treating them as collateral damage is something else entirelyand it's a failure of moral imagination and strategic thinking.
So yeah, call out Hamas for their crimes. But don't pretend collective punishment is justice. It's exactly the kind of pseudo-compassion that leads to more bloodshed down the road, not less.
Justice isn't delivered by firing indiscriminately, it's delivered by breaking the cycle, protecting the innocent, and demanding real solutions. If you think punishing millions for the crimes of a few is justice, then honestly, you're just indulging in a cheap version of it.
jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
War is hell. Hamas should surrender and release the prisoners. Until they do that…Hamas has zero "Moral authority." And they never did. But unfortunately Americans and people in the West are buying into it.
This reminds me of "Lost Cause" type of stuff.
Again, War is Hell. Hamas started it. Israel is finishing it
sam callahan said:
There are always (at least) two things missing from these types of arguments.
1) A solution of what things should look like going forward.
2) An acknowledgment that Hamas wants the suffering of their people. It's their strongest weapon.
Alright, let's get real about this because most of these conversations leave out the stuff that actually matters.
- What should really happen going forward?
If you think endless bombing and blockades will fix centuries of conflict, you're setting yourself up for failure. Real peace means a political solution an end to occupation, a sovereign Palestinian state, and a serious disarmament of terrorist groups like Hamas. No more cheering for one-sided violence or collective punishment. It's about mutual recognition and ensuring both sides feel secure. The puzzle's been on the table for decades, but it takes guts from leaders to make moves and that includes the international community actually putting muscle behind justice and rebuilding, not just rhetoric or weapons.
- Yeah, Hamas uses suffering as a weapon.
They're brutal and cynical no question. Embedding fighters among civilians, using human shields, refusing to free hostages it's the worst kind of strategy. But falling for that tactic and then punishing millions of innocent people in response isn't smart it just fuels the hate, the anger, the next round of violence. Collective punishment isn't justice; it's revenge dressed up as policy. And revenge never ends well.
jaborch99 said:Infection_Ag11 said:jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
This is a warped, perverse and immoral understanding of justice.
Again, this is no different than arguing that a murderer should go free in order to prevent the murderer's children from becoming fatherless. That is a perversion of justice. It's mindless social media pseudo compassion at its absolute worst.
Look, I get where you're coming from with the murderer analogyit's a gut-level kind of justice that demands punishment regardless of consequences. But that black-and-white thinking doesn't hold up when you're talking about millions of civilians trapped in a war zone, not just the guilty few.
Justice isn't about vengeance for its own sake. It's about proportionality, fairness, and protecting the innocent. Dropping collective punishment on an entire population because their government is evil doesn't make you a heroit makes you complicit in creating more hatred, more cycles of violence, and more innocent suffering.
If you really want justice, then stop cheering for policies that tear apart families, starve children, and destroy infrastructure with no clear end game except endless war. Holding people accountable is one thing. Blaming an entire population and treating them as collateral damage is something else entirelyand it's a failure of moral imagination and strategic thinking.
So yeah, call out Hamas for their crimes. But don't pretend collective punishment is justice. It's exactly the kind of pseudo-compassion that leads to more bloodshed down the road, not less.
Justice isn't delivered by firing indiscriminately, it's delivered by breaking the cycle, protecting the innocent, and demanding real solutions. If you think punishing millions for the crimes of a few is justice, then honestly, you're just indulging in a cheap version of it.
A collective is going to be necessarily punished in this scenario, it is unavoidable. The only question is will it be the Palestinians or the Israelis?
A ceasefire right now under the conditions that Hamas would agree to means collective punishment for Israel. Their people will suffer and die in the long run as a result. Is it unfortunate that Palestinians are suffering now? Yes. Did they help bring this upon themselves? Also yes. And because their actions over decades ultimately led to 10/7, whether they intended for them to or not, their suffering as a necessary consequence to protect Israel is the just outcome. Not asking Israel to shed more of their own innocent blood in order to appear nice and compassionate.
Don't look at this through the lens of body counts. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of justice. How many more Palestinians die than Israelis is not a relevant fact with respect to the moral question here. The question is who should bear the consequences of Hamas' actions? Because someone has to. And under your proposal it will be Israel.
jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
I completely disagree with your conclusion.
Those wars your refer to begat more chaos because we left the locals to their own devices after the war.
But you know who didn't start a "next round of violence"? Germany. After their major cities were bombed into ruins. After the Allies gave a quarter of their pre-1937 land to Poland and Russia and expelled 10 million people from it (plus a few million more from the Sudetenland and other German ethnic enclaves). After we dismantled the German government and rebuilt it in our own image. After leaving the country divided for more than 40 years.
It sounds cruel to say it, but collective punishment works.
BillYeoman said:jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
War is hell. Hamas should surrender and release the prisoners. Until they do that…Hamas has zero "Moral authority." And they never did. But unfortunately Americans and people in the West are buying into it.
This reminds me of "Lost Cause" type of stuff.
Again, War is Hell. Hamas started it. Israel is finishing it
Yeah, "War is hell" no argument there. But the idea that Hamas "should just surrender" and that ends everything? That's the kind of wishful thinking that ignores reality and the complexities on the ground.
Hamas does want suffering. They weaponize it. They embed their fighters in civilian areas, use human shields, and refuse peace deals that would save lives because their strategy depends on blood and chaos. Zero moral authority? Absolutely. They're a terrorist group, plain and simple.
But throwing your hands up and saying "Israel is finishing it" without demanding an end to collective punishment, unrestricted humanitarian aid, and a real political process isn't courage or clarity it's abdication. It's letting the cycle spin out endlessly, where millions live in hell while the same mistakes repeat.
And that "lost cause" comparison? C'mon. No one's arguing Hamas is justified. The point is: justice and peace don't come from grinding innocent populations to dust. They come from breaking the cycle, cutting off incentives for terror, and pushing real diplomacy not just bombs and blockades.
If you really want to help end the hell, start demanding that side too. Otherwise, you're just spitting slogans while the nightmare drags on.
Keyno said:txags92 said:Keyno said:Zachary Klement said:Quote:
As more than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed seeking aid at militarized aid distribution sites run by the U.S.- and Israel-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, a former GHF security contractor tells Democracy Now! he saw U.S. mercenaries and Israeli forces commit war crimes by indiscriminately shooting at starving Palestinians waiting for aid. "What I witnessed in Gaza, I can only describe as a dystopian, post-apocalyptic wasteland," says Anthony Aguilar, a retired U.S. soldier who worked as a subcontractor with UG Solutions in the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation aid delivery operation. "We, the United States, are complicit. We are involved, hand in hand, in the atrocities and the genocide that is currently undergoing in Gaza."
AMY GOODMAN: We're going to end it there, but I want to just be very clear: You saw former U.S. military, you saw IDF, you saw the Israeli soldiers opening fire on hungry Palestinians.
ANTHONY AGUILAR: Without a doubt, yes, full stop.
https://www.democracynow.org/2025/7/29/anthony_aguilar_ghf_war_crimesQuote:
More than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces since May while trying to get food, mostly near the new aid sites run by the GHF, an American contractor, the U.N. human rights office says.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-military-says-airdrops-of-humanitarian-aid-will-begin-saturday-night-in-gaza#:~:text=More%20than%201%2C000%20Palestinians%20have,struggled%20to%20get%20enough%20food.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/7/29/live-israel-kills-92-in-gaza-in-one-day-as-death-toll-nears-60000
https://www.npr.org/2025/07/23/nx-s1-5477365/israel-gaza-aid-casualties
"I witnessed the Israeli Defense Forces shooting at the crowds of Palestinians," Anthony Aguilar told the BBC.
He added that in his entire career he has never witnessed such a level of "brutality and use of indiscriminate and unnecessary force against a civilian population, an unarmed, starving population".
He's basically saying the IDF is worse than Taliban, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc. Thats crazy
https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cy8k8045nx9o
Yeah and he has been outed by GHF as a disgruntled former employee that was fired for misconduct and spent a couple of weeks begging for his job back while threatening the company before giving that interview. He worked for them for 27 days and spent more than half of it in a hotel in Israel.
Definitely interesting. Maybe he's lying. GHF also seems to be run by the American security firms- giving them motive to discredit him. Maybe they're lying?
Well their briefing included copies of emails he sent them. Seems like he would have a good case for slander if they falsified them. If he doesn't sue, I will continue with my assumption that he is a liar trying to get paid.
jaborch99 said:sam callahan said:
There are always (at least) two things missing from these types of arguments.
1) A solution of what things should look like going forward.
2) An acknowledgment that Hamas wants the suffering of their people. It's their strongest weapon.
Alright, let's get real about this because most of these conversations leave out the stuff that actually matters.
- What should really happen going forward?
If you think endless bombing and blockades will fix centuries of conflict, you're setting yourself up for failure. Real peace means a political solution an end to occupation, a sovereign Palestinian state, and a serious disarmament of terrorist groups like Hamas. No more cheering for one-sided violence or collective punishment. It's about mutual recognition and ensuring both sides feel secure. The puzzle's been on the table for decades, but it takes guts from leaders to make moves and that includes the international community actually putting muscle behind justice and rebuilding, not just rhetoric or weapons.So stop spinning this like a simple good vs evil story. Real peace and justice demand facing uncomfortable truths, cutting through propaganda, and pushing for solutions that protect real people not statistics or hashtags. If you want to break the cycle, demand ceasefires, unimpeded humanitarian aid, and real diplomacy that addresses all the issues, not just the convenient talking points. Otherwise, you're just riding the same endless war hamster wheel, and everyone loses.
- Yeah, Hamas uses suffering as a weapon.
They're brutal and cynical no question. Embedding fighters among civilians, using human shields, refusing to free hostages it's the worst kind of strategy. But falling for that tactic and then punishing millions of innocent people in response isn't smart it just fuels the hate, the anger, the next round of violence. Collective punishment isn't justice; it's revenge dressed up as policy. And revenge never ends well.
You believe that at least a sizable portion of the Palestinian population thinks like we do and operates under the same motivations, and that just isn't true.
Israel has offered Palestine a state on multiple occasions over the years, before and after Hamas. They are always turned down because a large majority of the people hate Jews more than they love anything in their lives. They hate Jews more than they love their own children in many cases. They will never agree to anything that includes a maintenance of the state of Israel.
They only want a Palestinian state if it includes an end to the Jewish state.
Based on your answers, there is only one real solution.
Eradicate Hamas and give who is left another shot at finding leaders who value their people more than they hate the Jews.
Anything else is the endless cycle.
And unfortunately, eradicating Hamas isn't a surgical exercise. Anybody who pretends it could be is in fantasy land.
Eradicate Hamas and give who is left another shot at finding leaders who value their people more than they hate the Jews.
Anything else is the endless cycle.
And unfortunately, eradicating Hamas isn't a surgical exercise. Anybody who pretends it could be is in fantasy land.
Infection_Ag11 said:jaborch99 said:Infection_Ag11 said:jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
This is a warped, perverse and immoral understanding of justice.
Again, this is no different than arguing that a murderer should go free in order to prevent the murderer's children from becoming fatherless. That is a perversion of justice. It's mindless social media pseudo compassion at its absolute worst.
Look, I get where you're coming from with the murderer analogyit's a gut-level kind of justice that demands punishment regardless of consequences. But that black-and-white thinking doesn't hold up when you're talking about millions of civilians trapped in a war zone, not just the guilty few.
Justice isn't about vengeance for its own sake. It's about proportionality, fairness, and protecting the innocent. Dropping collective punishment on an entire population because their government is evil doesn't make you a heroit makes you complicit in creating more hatred, more cycles of violence, and more innocent suffering.
If you really want justice, then stop cheering for policies that tear apart families, starve children, and destroy infrastructure with no clear end game except endless war. Holding people accountable is one thing. Blaming an entire population and treating them as collateral damage is something else entirelyand it's a failure of moral imagination and strategic thinking.
So yeah, call out Hamas for their crimes. But don't pretend collective punishment is justice. It's exactly the kind of pseudo-compassion that leads to more bloodshed down the road, not less.
Justice isn't delivered by firing indiscriminately, it's delivered by breaking the cycle, protecting the innocent, and demanding real solutions. If you think punishing millions for the crimes of a few is justice, then honestly, you're just indulging in a cheap version of it.
A collective is going to be necessarily punished in this scenario, it is unavoidable. The only question is will it be the Palestinians or the Israelis?
A ceasefire right now under the conditions that Hamas would agree to means collective punishment for Israel. Their people will suffer and die in the long run as a result. Is it unfortunate that Palestinians are suffering now? Yes. Did they help bring this upon themselves? Also yes. And because their actions over decades ultimately led to 10/7, whether they intended for them to or not, their suffering as a necessary consequence to protect Israel is the just outcome. Not asking Israel to shed more of their own innocent blood in order to appear nice and compassionate.
Don't look at this through the lens of body counts. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of justice. How many more Palestinians die than Israelis is not a relevant fact with respect to the moral question here. The question is who should bear the consequences of Hamas' actions? Because someone has to. And under your proposal it will be Israel.
Look, saying "someone's gotta pay" and it's either Palestinians or Israelis isn't some straightforward moral calculusit's total oversimplification and a cop-out. You're arguing that millions of civilians trapped in Gaza have no choice but to bear the consequences of Hamas's crimes because morality demands Israel not bleed more. That's a brutal zero-sum game view, but it's not justice or reason.
Justice isn't about picking a side to punish wholesale; it's about breaking cycles of violence, protecting innocents, and seeking solutions that don't doom one population to indefinite suffering. The idea that Palestinian suffering is a necessary consequence makes them collateral damage in a forever war, which morally makes anyone who supports that complicit in their misery.
And yes, Hamas's actions are barbaric and they want to drag their people down with them. But that doesn't mean Israel or the world should accept collective punishment and blockades that crush entire families, kids, and communities. That's a tactical and moral failure that fuels hatred and instabilitynot security.
If you want sustained peace and justice, you have to stop buying the logic that innocent civilians have to be punished for decades of conflict. That's not a "just outcome," it's a brutal shortcut to endless war and suffering. Demand strategies that protect human life on all sides and insist on real diplomatic solutions. Otherwise, you're part of the problem, not the solution.
A real child.
— Israel ישראל (@Israel) July 29, 2025
A fake story.
📸 11-month-old Sila Barbakh isn’t starving — he suffers from a pre-existing chronic gastrointestinal illness, unrelated to the war.
But global media used his photo to push a false narrative of famine in Gaza.
This isn’t journalism. It’s propaganda. pic.twitter.com/u9BL29zNjG
“ How you fellas doin? We about to have us a little screw party in this red Prius over here if you wanna join us.”
🎭 Theatrics of the Damned
— יצחק הלוי 🌐 Isaac Halevi (@Isaac_Halevi) July 9, 2025
In Gaza’s theatre of cruelty, Hamas-linked “charities” stage fake mercy for the cameras—handing food and water to starving children, only to snatch it back once the filmed scene is completed.
🔴 Aid becomes a prop.
🔴 Hunger, a photo op.
🔴… pic.twitter.com/YLM0eVah3C
“ How you fellas doin? We about to have us a little screw party in this red Prius over here if you wanna join us.”
jaborch99 said:Infection_Ag11 said:jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
This is a warped, perverse and immoral understanding of justice.
Again, this is no different than arguing that a murderer should go free in order to prevent the murderer's children from becoming fatherless. That is a perversion of justice. It's mindless social media pseudo compassion at its absolute worst.
Look, I get where you're coming from with the murderer analogyit's a gut-level kind of justice that demands punishment regardless of consequences. But that black-and-white thinking doesn't hold up when you're talking about millions of civilians trapped in a war zone, not just the guilty few.
Justice isn't about vengeance for its own sake. It's about proportionality, fairness, and protecting the innocent. Dropping collective punishment on an entire population because their government is evil doesn't make you a heroit makes you complicit in creating more hatred, more cycles of violence, and more innocent suffering.
If you really want justice, then stop cheering for policies that tear apart families, starve children, and destroy infrastructure with no clear end game except endless war. Holding people accountable is one thing. Blaming an entire population and treating them as collateral damage is something else entirelyand it's a failure of moral imagination and strategic thinking.
So yeah, call out Hamas for their crimes. But don't pretend collective punishment is justice. It's exactly the kind of pseudo-compassion that leads to more bloodshed down the road, not less.
Justice isn't delivered by firing indiscriminately, it's delivered by breaking the cycle, protecting the innocent, and demanding real solutions. If you think punishing millions for the crimes of a few is justice, then honestly, you're just indulging in a cheap version of it.
Tell me you haven't studied the defeat of Nazi Germany and Fascist Japan without telling me.
They all knew these pics, just like this one below, were diseased kids, and not starving.
— TheFinnishSisu🔱🇺🇸 (@theFinnishSisu) July 29, 2025
Full PR war by the anti Jew left with help from MSM
So this kid was apparently starving too, right next to his obese mom. Shameless. pic.twitter.com/XPX8TzC0t6
“ How you fellas doin? We about to have us a little screw party in this red Prius over here if you wanna join us.”
jaborch99 said:BillYeoman said:jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
War is hell. Hamas should surrender and release the prisoners. Until they do that…Hamas has zero "Moral authority." And they never did. But unfortunately Americans and people in the West are buying into it.
This reminds me of "Lost Cause" type of stuff.
Again, War is Hell. Hamas started it. Israel is finishing it
Yeah, "War is hell" no argument there. But the idea that Hamas "should just surrender" and that ends everything? That's the kind of wishful thinking that ignores reality and the complexities on the ground.
Hamas does want suffering. They weaponize it. They embed their fighters in civilian areas, use human shields, and refuse peace deals that would save lives because their strategy depends on blood and chaos. Zero moral authority? Absolutely. They're a terrorist group, plain and simple.
But throwing your hands up and saying "Israel is finishing it" without demanding an end to collective punishment, unrestricted humanitarian aid, and a real political process isn't courage or clarity it's abdication. It's letting the cycle spin out endlessly, where millions live in hell while the same mistakes repeat.
And that "lost cause" comparison? C'mon. No one's arguing Hamas is justified. The point is: justice and peace don't come from grinding innocent populations to dust. They come from breaking the cycle, cutting off incentives for terror, and pushing real diplomacy not just bombs and blockades.
If you really want to help end the hell, start demanding that side too. Otherwise, you're just spitting slogans while the nightmare drags on.
There are plenty of people saying Hamas is justified as freedom fighters. They are delusional and refuse the evidence before their own eyes, but there are a ton of them out there. A good chunk of them are openly anti-semitic and support Hamas for that reason, but others honestly believe they are no different than the US founding fathers who revolted against an unjust government using unconventional warfare. They are the ones you see out there chanting "from the River to the Sea".
And "unrestricted humanitarian aid" is how Hamas smuggled in all their weapons and rocket components. The UN aid agencies have been proven to be complicit in doing so. Israelis wise to not trust them and demand their own role in the process.
All of the valid available pathways to true peace in Gaza start and end with Hamas being out of power and disarmed. They can either agree to it and hand over their weapons and hostages/remains or Israel can keep going as they have been. Even the other Arab countries and neighbors who usually take the Palestinian side are not calling for Hamas to remain in power at the end of any peace deal. They all want Hamas disarmed and out of power. All that is left is for the Gazans to start ratting Hamas out and helping the world take away their weapons. As long as the Gazans continue to see Israel as more of an enemy than Hamas, Hamas will continue to hold power.
jaborch99 said:Infection_Ag11 said:jaborch99 said:Infection_Ag11 said:jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
This is a warped, perverse and immoral understanding of justice.
Again, this is no different than arguing that a murderer should go free in order to prevent the murderer's children from becoming fatherless. That is a perversion of justice. It's mindless social media pseudo compassion at its absolute worst.
Look, I get where you're coming from with the murderer analogyit's a gut-level kind of justice that demands punishment regardless of consequences. But that black-and-white thinking doesn't hold up when you're talking about millions of civilians trapped in a war zone, not just the guilty few.
Justice isn't about vengeance for its own sake. It's about proportionality, fairness, and protecting the innocent. Dropping collective punishment on an entire population because their government is evil doesn't make you a heroit makes you complicit in creating more hatred, more cycles of violence, and more innocent suffering.
If you really want justice, then stop cheering for policies that tear apart families, starve children, and destroy infrastructure with no clear end game except endless war. Holding people accountable is one thing. Blaming an entire population and treating them as collateral damage is something else entirelyand it's a failure of moral imagination and strategic thinking.
So yeah, call out Hamas for their crimes. But don't pretend collective punishment is justice. It's exactly the kind of pseudo-compassion that leads to more bloodshed down the road, not less.
Justice isn't delivered by firing indiscriminately, it's delivered by breaking the cycle, protecting the innocent, and demanding real solutions. If you think punishing millions for the crimes of a few is justice, then honestly, you're just indulging in a cheap version of it.
A collective is going to be necessarily punished in this scenario, it is unavoidable. The only question is will it be the Palestinians or the Israelis?
A ceasefire right now under the conditions that Hamas would agree to means collective punishment for Israel. Their people will suffer and die in the long run as a result. Is it unfortunate that Palestinians are suffering now? Yes. Did they help bring this upon themselves? Also yes. And because their actions over decades ultimately led to 10/7, whether they intended for them to or not, their suffering as a necessary consequence to protect Israel is the just outcome. Not asking Israel to shed more of their own innocent blood in order to appear nice and compassionate.
Don't look at this through the lens of body counts. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of justice. How many more Palestinians die than Israelis is not a relevant fact with respect to the moral question here. The question is who should bear the consequences of Hamas' actions? Because someone has to. And under your proposal it will be Israel.
Look, saying "someone's gotta pay" and it's either Palestinians or Israelis isn't some straightforward moral calculusit's total oversimplification and a cop-out. You're arguing that millions of civilians trapped in Gaza have no choice but to bear the consequences of Hamas's crimes because morality demands Israel not bleed more. That's a brutal zero-sum game view, but it's not justice or reason.
Justice isn't about picking a side to punish wholesale; it's about breaking cycles of violence, protecting innocents, and seeking solutions that don't doom one population to indefinite suffering. The idea that Palestinian suffering is a necessary consequence makes them collateral damage in a forever war, which morally makes anyone who supports that complicit in their misery.
And yes, Hamas's actions are barbaric and they want to drag their people down with them. But that doesn't mean Israel or the world should accept collective punishment and blockades that crush entire families, kids, and communities. That's a tactical and moral failure that fuels hatred and instabilitynot security.
If you want sustained peace and justice, you have to stop buying the logic that innocent civilians have to be punished for decades of conflict. That's not a "just outcome," it's a brutal shortcut to endless war and suffering. Demand strategies that protect human life on all sides and insist on real diplomatic solutions. Otherwise, you're part of the problem, not the solution.
In order for justice and peace to be served….who is responsible for these "innocent" civilians? You are suggesting Israel is the responsible party here.
Things like "justice and peace"need parties that actually believe in Justice and Peace. Hamas doesn't believe in either.
Infection_Ag11 said:jaborch99 said:sam callahan said:
There are always (at least) two things missing from these types of arguments.
1) A solution of what things should look like going forward.
2) An acknowledgment that Hamas wants the suffering of their people. It's their strongest weapon.
Alright, let's get real about this because most of these conversations leave out the stuff that actually matters.
- What should really happen going forward?
If you think endless bombing and blockades will fix centuries of conflict, you're setting yourself up for failure. Real peace means a political solution an end to occupation, a sovereign Palestinian state, and a serious disarmament of terrorist groups like Hamas. No more cheering for one-sided violence or collective punishment. It's about mutual recognition and ensuring both sides feel secure. The puzzle's been on the table for decades, but it takes guts from leaders to make moves and that includes the international community actually putting muscle behind justice and rebuilding, not just rhetoric or weapons.So stop spinning this like a simple good vs evil story. Real peace and justice demand facing uncomfortable truths, cutting through propaganda, and pushing for solutions that protect real people not statistics or hashtags. If you want to break the cycle, demand ceasefires, unimpeded humanitarian aid, and real diplomacy that addresses all the issues, not just the convenient talking points. Otherwise, you're just riding the same endless war hamster wheel, and everyone loses.
- Yeah, Hamas uses suffering as a weapon.
They're brutal and cynical no question. Embedding fighters among civilians, using human shields, refusing to free hostages it's the worst kind of strategy. But falling for that tactic and then punishing millions of innocent people in response isn't smart it just fuels the hate, the anger, the next round of violence. Collective punishment isn't justice; it's revenge dressed up as policy. And revenge never ends well.
You believe that at least a sizable portion of the Palestinian population thinks like we do and operates under the same motivations, and that just isn't true.
Israel has offered Palestine a state on multiple occasions over the years, before and after Hamas. They are always turned down because a large majority of the people hate Jews more than they love anything in their lives. They hate Jews more than they love their own children in many cases. They will never agree to anything that includes a maintenance of the state of Israel.
They only want a Palestinian state if it includes an end to the Jewish state.
Look, the idea that every Palestinian hates Jews so much that peace is impossible is a convenient stereotype that sells well but doesn't match the whole story. Yeah, some hold brutal, hateful viewsand Hamas fosters and profits from thatbut the Palestinian population isn't some monolith of rage.
Polls over the last couple of years show support for Hamas dropping sharply in Gaza, while backing for a two-state solution and negotiation has actually increased. People want peace, stability, and a future that isn't war and siege. The problem is there's no leadership or political framework they trust to deliver that peace, thanks largely to decades of conflict, occupation, and yes, Hamas's brutality.
Sure, there are extremists who reject Israel's right to exist. But lumping millions of people into that camp ignores the nuance, hard reality, and the many Palestinians who simply want a chance to live normal lives. Hatred doesn't run that deep uniformlyand painting it that way only fuels the cycle of conflict by hardening attitudes on both sides.
If we're serious about peace, we have to stop reducing a complex population to caricatures and start pushing for political leadership and solutions that resonate with the broader Palestinian publicnot just the hardliners.
Quote:
You're arguing that millions of civilians trapped in Gaza have no choice but to bear the consequences of Hamas's crimes because morality demands Israel not bleed more.
Correct, but it's not because I just want to see Palestinians suffer as a point of vengeance. It's because reality necessitates it. If there were a solution where nobody has to suffer and die that would be wonderful, but there isn't.
Quote:
Justice isn't about picking a side to punish wholesale; it's about breaking cycles of violence, protecting innocents, and seeking solutions that don't doom one population to indefinite suffering. The idea that Palestinian suffering is a necessary consequence makes them collateral damage in a forever war, which morally makes anyone who supports that complicit in their misery.
I'm not picking a side just to play favorites, I'm picking the side that bears the moral burden for a situation in which there is no way out of that involves no suffering and death. Millions of Germans died as byproduct of the destruction of Nazism, and while sad for any individual German on the whole that was just because they all carried the moral burden of the evil society they lived in. Does that mean they should have kept suffering and dying behind the point that was necessary for total victory? No, but it means that until total victory was achieved their suffering to whatever degree it had to occur was just.
Palestinians should stop suffering and dying the moment an end game is reached that allows Israel to no longer be realistically threatened by them. That means a final, forever end to Hamas rule, the return of all hostages and an Israeli or western coalition helping set up a new set of rules for them. Until then, to whatever extent they do suffer on the way to that solution, their suffering is moral and just.
jaborch99 said:Infection_Ag11 said:jaborch99 said:Infection_Ag11 said:jaborch99 said:
Look, if your only framework is "Hamas bad, Israel good, so anything goes"- you're missing half the picture.
Hamas absolutely committed horrifying acts. No honest person defends that. But using those horrors to justify the ongoing, collective punishment of millions - including the blockade, the bombing campaigns, and the deliberate throttling of aid flat-out ignores basic decency and international law. You can't say you care about justice and brush past the images of dead and starving children, or the credible reports from NGOs and even the U.S. government warning about famine, displacement, and mass civilian deaths.
If Israel's aim was actually to wipe out Hamas - the group, the leadership, the tunnels - after 20 months of scorched-earth tactics and with all the resources of a modern military, why haven't they succeeded? Instead, what has succeeded is erasing entire neighborhoods, cratering Gaza's infrastructure, and letting hundreds of thousands get caught in the crossfire with no way out. If you think that's all excusable - and that every adult in Gaza is equal to a Hamas militant - then you're just buying war propaganda. That doesn't make you "tough on terror"; it just makes you a cheerleader for endless war.
And let's not forget: The bigger game here isn't about "good guys vs bad guys" - it's about real people on all sides, and about the U.S. government writing blank checks (with your tax dollars) for policies that do nothing but fuel more suffering, more blowback, and more endless conflict. The same endless war logic we've seen fail over and over again.
If you're genuinely serious about justice, liberty, or any values the West is supposed to stand for, then the only morally coherent stance is this: Stop supporting collective punishment. Demand a ceasefire. Send humanitarian aid in, unimpeded. Stop treating Palestinian civilians as expendable. Call for real diplomacy instead of more bombs and more excuses. Otherwise, don't act surprised when the next round of violence comes - because as history shows (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria...), this kind of "solution" always begets more chaos, more enemies, and less security for everyone.
And for those quoting "Blessed are the peacemakers" - that's not just for decoration. It's a radical call to break these cycles, not perpetuate them.
This is a warped, perverse and immoral understanding of justice.
Again, this is no different than arguing that a murderer should go free in order to prevent the murderer's children from becoming fatherless. That is a perversion of justice. It's mindless social media pseudo compassion at its absolute worst.
Look, I get where you're coming from with the murderer analogyit's a gut-level kind of justice that demands punishment regardless of consequences. But that black-and-white thinking doesn't hold up when you're talking about millions of civilians trapped in a war zone, not just the guilty few.
Justice isn't about vengeance for its own sake. It's about proportionality, fairness, and protecting the innocent. Dropping collective punishment on an entire population because their government is evil doesn't make you a heroit makes you complicit in creating more hatred, more cycles of violence, and more innocent suffering.
If you really want justice, then stop cheering for policies that tear apart families, starve children, and destroy infrastructure with no clear end game except endless war. Holding people accountable is one thing. Blaming an entire population and treating them as collateral damage is something else entirelyand it's a failure of moral imagination and strategic thinking.
So yeah, call out Hamas for their crimes. But don't pretend collective punishment is justice. It's exactly the kind of pseudo-compassion that leads to more bloodshed down the road, not less.
Justice isn't delivered by firing indiscriminately, it's delivered by breaking the cycle, protecting the innocent, and demanding real solutions. If you think punishing millions for the crimes of a few is justice, then honestly, you're just indulging in a cheap version of it.
A collective is going to be necessarily punished in this scenario, it is unavoidable. The only question is will it be the Palestinians or the Israelis?
A ceasefire right now under the conditions that Hamas would agree to means collective punishment for Israel. Their people will suffer and die in the long run as a result. Is it unfortunate that Palestinians are suffering now? Yes. Did they help bring this upon themselves? Also yes. And because their actions over decades ultimately led to 10/7, whether they intended for them to or not, their suffering as a necessary consequence to protect Israel is the just outcome. Not asking Israel to shed more of their own innocent blood in order to appear nice and compassionate.
Don't look at this through the lens of body counts. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of justice. How many more Palestinians die than Israelis is not a relevant fact with respect to the moral question here. The question is who should bear the consequences of Hamas' actions? Because someone has to. And under your proposal it will be Israel.
Look, saying "someone's gotta pay" and it's either Palestinians or Israelis isn't some straightforward moral calculusit's total oversimplification and a cop-out. You're arguing that millions of civilians trapped in Gaza have no choice but to bear the consequences of Hamas's crimes because morality demands Israel not bleed more. That's a brutal zero-sum game view, but it's not justice or reason.
Justice isn't about picking a side to punish wholesale; it's about breaking cycles of violence, protecting innocents, and seeking solutions that don't doom one population to indefinite suffering. The idea that Palestinian suffering is a necessary consequence makes them collateral damage in a forever war, which morally makes anyone who supports that complicit in their misery.
And yes, Hamas's actions are barbaric and they want to drag their people down with them. But that doesn't mean Israel or the world should accept collective punishment and blockades that crush entire families, kids, and communities. That's a tactical and moral failure that fuels hatred and instabilitynot security.
If you want sustained peace and justice, you have to stop buying the logic that innocent civilians have to be punished for decades of conflict. That's not a "just outcome," it's a brutal shortcut to endless war and suffering. Demand strategies that protect human life on all sides and insist on real diplomatic solutions. Otherwise, you're part of the problem, not the solution.
You falling into the fallacy that Israel wants to punish civilians. If they did, they would not be going out of their way to warn civilians about incoming attacks and setting up corridors for them to flee, even when they know that by doing so, they give an advantage to Hamas.
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