Russo Ukrainian peace on a knife's edge

70,032 Views | 1025 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by nortex97
chiphijason
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nortex97 said:

An interesting piece, written from a pro-war euro perspective, though written by a Chinese guy for a Turkish paper I think.
Quote:

After the Istanbul talks, Putin inspected the fully recaptured Kursk region and will soon visit Donbas, controlled by Russian forces. This over three-year war has now entered a new stalemate phase marked by a temporary Russian victory. With overwhelming military strength and vast occupied territory, Russia refuses Ukraine's call for a ceasefire before negotiations and instead favors negotiating while fighting. This strategy prevents Ukraine from regrouping and aims to drive Ukrainian forces out of the remaining contested areas, securing full control of the four regions. The "border buffer zone" Putin spoke of essentially represents a redefined Russia-Ukraine boundary, securing complete victory in the war.

Russia holds battlefield initiative and strategic upper hand, Ukraine refuses to yield, and European countries are unwilling to abandon Ukraine. This complex situation has gradually drained the Trump administration's confidence, patience, and courage, increasingly signaling a hands-off approach.
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The Trump administration is gradually abandoning leadership of the Western world and relinquishing its dominant position in NATO. Its focus on making America strong alone means it will never bleed to preserve Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity or help Europe fulfill its strategic dream of containing Russia. Although the Russia-Ukraine war has entered a new phase of direct negotiations, there is no chance for a win-win outcome. Ukraine and Europe's best hope at present is to maintain the status quo and wait for the Republican administration to step down, hoping that a Democratic administration will return to the previous hardline policies. Even so, Ukraine and Europe are unlikely to win the warunless a dramatic internal change occurs in Russia, or the country disintegrates. A united, nationalist Russia remains undefeated, especially not on its own doorstep.

History has long witnessed the power struggles between Russia and Europe. It shows that Russia has never willingly returned land it has occupied or annexed unless it was truly defeatedespecially not places like Crimea or the four eastern and southern Ukrainian provinces, which are historically connected and home to many generations of ethnic Russians.

Three years ago, shortly after the Russia-Ukraine war broke out, the author predicted that this century's war would end with a tragic Russian victory and a disastrous Ukrainian defeat. The forecast was that this continental war involving multiple actors would first become "Afghanistan-ized," and eventually "Palestinian-ized." Unfortunately, reality is step by step confirming this prediction.

The tragedy of Nato Expansion.
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Worse still, NATO expansion became untethered from strategic necessity. It took on a life of its own an institutional momentum powered by bureaucracy, domestic politics, and ideological conviction. At every step whether in Poland, the Baltics, Georgia, or Ukraine Western policymakers failed to ask the most basic question of all: how will this look from Moscow? And can we live with the reaction?

We believed, or convinced ourselves, that history had ended. That power politics had been transcended. That Russia would simply accept its diminished role in a world reshaped by liberal rules, norms and institutions. But history didn't end. It reasserted itself brutally, predictably, and with tragic consequences.

Let's be clear: Putin's war is a war of choice. It's rooted in a revanchist vision of empire and an authoritarian contempt for Ukraine's independence. But acknowledging that doesn't absolve the West of its role in laying the foundations for conflict. To do so would be to confuse moral judgment with strategic clarity. It would be, in essence, to choose self-congratulation over self-awareness.
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The Tragedy of NATO Expansion

The tragedy of NATO expansion is not that it happened. It's how it happened mechanically, arrogantly, and with little regard for the balance-of-power dynamics that have shaped geopolitics since Thucydides.

We had a fleeting chance to build something better. We didn't. And now we live in the world that that decision helped shape.

The bear is growling. And we're pretending we don't know why.
Correct on all points. Long pieces, more at the links.


This argument has always been unserious. I can counter all of that by saying what if NATO had not expanded? How many of the Baltics and other border countries would have already been absorbed by Russia? Russia never willingly retreats and advances whenever there is an opportunity. Ask the Japanese about the Kurils.
Pumpkinhead
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Since 2022 the EU has been reducing its dependency on Russian energy and increasing its imports of LNG from the United States.

Keep that going with the United States supplanting Russia as a major supplier of energy in the EU (oh, and folks asking why the US is involved in EU affairs, there is one reason! Money!'), choke off that 'shadow fleet' of Russia, sanction them, threaten tariffs on countries buying energy from them, and maintain the weapon's flow to Ukraine. Use the NATO countries approximate 24X GDP size difference to Russia to maximum advantage.

Maximum squeeze them and give them no doubt this is going to be an 'endless war' of attrition that economically will eventually break them. Give them no hope of the USA 'walking away'. Give them no hope of NATO disbanding. That kind of crap just shows weakness encouraging 'Make the USSR great again' delusions over there.

THEN…while acting tough and strong…making that extra $$$ selling energy to Europe, got the rare minerals deal with Ukraine, Finland now part of NATO, the other NATO countries now motivated to do more of their share paying military defense….thanks for all that Russia!!!….you still gotta throw Russia a big enough bone to save face in any peace deal.

So you negotiate that they can keep Crimea and some other land they grabbed, to get the peace settlement. Ukraine is going to have to accept that. And You state that Ukraine will never be part of NATO. But remaining Ukraine is still going to be a sovereign country with the right to defend itself and IS NOT going to be disarmed and there will be some kind of possible 'buffer zone' to discourage this sh** starting up again in a few years.

The Trump admin has tried a soft gentle approach with Putin thus far and it hasn't worked. I give the Trump admin an 'F' thus far on this specific topic. Enough already. The longer Trump keeps doing that approach just makes him look weaker. Everybody knows the US can't really 'walk away' from Europe and it's NATO allies because of all the various factors, so time for Trump to nut up and stand up to Putin in a stronger way.

nortex97
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Security council? LOL, the whole body is a joke.


Sigh…
J. Walter Weatherman
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Much like 99% of the rest of the world, Ukraine doesn't launch unprovoked invasions in an attempt to permanently take over land from their neighbors. So this was always going to be a bargaining chip for as long as they could hold it. They were able to carry out a couple prisoner exchanges thanks to it, so for them that may have been worth it. And they allowed Russia to feel some of what they had been experiencing thanks to Putin's invasion.

Either way, the overall lines haven't changed much since Ukraine initially pushed Russia back from their initial invasion, so the point is correct, your usual semantic trolling aside.
Sq 17
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This policy approach is not about " Trump being weak" Trump is a collaborator and sadly he still got elected
nortex97
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Sq 17 said:

This policy approach is not about " Trump being weak" Trump is a collaborator and sadly he still got elected
He sure has a weird way of 'collaborating.'
Pumpkinhead
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Sq 17 said:

This policy approach is not about " Trump being weak" Trump is a collaborator and sadly he still got elected
I don't buy into Trump is in Putin's pocket conspiracies whatsoever, if that is what you are insinuating.

I do however think the Trump admin in this case has been doing some odd fluctuating mix of 'America First' and Isolationism concepts that are making the U.S. imo look indecisive and weaker.

America First and Isolationism are not tightly bounded ideologies. They are separate. The USA can be a strong 'America First' superpower that still promotes strong Alliances (like NATO) and a Globalist mindset to further its own economic self-interests. Or you might shove 'America First' into an Isolationist ideological corner.

The Trump administration has been bouncing all over the place. One day it talks about 'walking away' from Ukraine but then the next day it is signing Mineral Deals with Ukraine and approving a $300 million dollar arms shipment to send to them. One day it is bashing Zelensky, the next day having a cozy conversation with him. It seems to have this Love/Hate relationship with its own Allies. The Trump admin IMO in this matter just doesn't seem to know exactly what it wants to be, and it is coming across weaker for it.

My own post is what I hope to see. Its 'America First' but drop all the isolationism vibes. Get tough with Russia, stop giving the impression you have any intent of 'walking away' from this conflict or NATO. You are in a renewed Cold War here, and own it and embrace it, because the Russians (and China and NK and Iran) damn sure are. Stop this talk about how 'Oh Vlad used to be a nice guy that I knew well, I don't understand why he is doing what he is doing, I wish he would stop' that just comes across as nonsense. Putin is not your friend. He was never your friend.

nortex97
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Sad.

Get out of Nato.
J. Walter Weatherman
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From the comments, Grok seems doubtful of the claim

nortex97
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You may be right, and I hope that you are, but I think there are a lot of reports this one is true.


Note, I don't speak Russian (believe it or not) or German, so I am not real sure.
Get Off My Lawn
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"Political misalignment ist verboten in the democratic republic of deutschland!"
GAC06
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Hey it might be bs yet again but here's a wall of tweets!
No Spin Ag
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nortex97 said:

Sq 17 said:

This policy approach is not about " Trump being weak" Trump is a collaborator and sadly he still got elected
He sure has a weird way of 'collaborating.'



This tweet does make one wonder who Putin's American sycophants would think of Trump if Trump began treating Putin the way most of it rest of the world treats Putin, like the 3rd world tin pot wannabe dictator in charge of a 3rd world sheet-hole country.
FIDO_Ags
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Putin is giving Trump a masters class in geopolitics and Trump doesn't even know it. Said differently, Trump brought checkers to a chess match.
J. Walter Weatherman
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GAC06 said:

Hey it might be bs yet again but here's a wall of tweets!


"Is it true? Who knows! But I'm definitely not doing the slightest bit of fact checking before posting it because it aligns with my views."
nortex97
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GAC06 said:

Hey it might be bs yet again but here's a wall of tweets!
Literally 'a wall' of 2 tweets. LOLOL.

Forever war, comrades.
Buck Turgidson
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The Russians need to feel a lot more pain. They're just tooling everybody around and don't seem to grasp that they are now a second rate power. They need to fear the consequences of NOT signing a peace deal. Maybe we start talking about giving Ukraine some top shelf weapons systems instead of the resale shop stuff theyve been getting.
nortex97
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Russia responds;
Quote:

These actions include an increase in strikes using Western-made drones and missiles targeting civilian facilities in Russia, officials said, noting that over the past week alone, air defense systems have destroyed and intercepted more than 2,300 drones, with most of them flying outside the frontline areas.

Ukrainian strikes have also resulted in casualties among civilians, including women and children, the ministry said.

Russia has retaliated with high-precision missile and drone strikes aimed "exclusively at Ukraine's military and defense industrial facilities," the statement stressed. The ministry also presented a lengthy list of the facilities that have been struck in Ukraine, including military bases, warehouses, airfields, radar stations, as well as drone assembly, gun powder, and explosives plants.

"The Russian military will continue to carry out massive and group strikes in response to any terrorist attacks and provocations of the Kiev regime. The strikes will be carried out exclusively on military facilities and enterprises of the military-industrial complex of Ukraine," the ministry added.
Neera Tanden schooled over revisionist Ukrainian history.

An unusual amount of maneuvering forces for both sides around Konstantinovka. The UFA have brought in 6 or so reserve units. Some of the iskander double taps were apparently of logistics hubs for this area.

I read the Taurus shipment was canceled, not sure what's going on as Z is meeting with Merz to ask for more money etc. today.
ak451ag
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Russian TV, Putin's mouthpiece, is all-in on continued aggression.
nortex97
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What's going on here, maybe just a subtle dig at Trump?

Good:

Not a lot of substance to these, one would think they'd be more useful vs. military targets in/around the front lines;

On Nato/EU:
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Putin reiterated Russia's long-standing position during an address to an international gathering of senior security officials in Moscow on Wednesday.

"Our approach remains principled and unwavering," Putin said. "The new security architecture must be equal and indivisible, meaning that all states must have firm guarantees of their security, but not at the expense of the security and interests of other countries."

Russia has accused Western nations of violating this principle by expanding NATO eastward since the 1990s, breaking earlier assurances given to the Soviet Union to gain its support for German reunification. The military bloc's intention to eventually include Ukraine is cited by Russia as a key reason for its ongoing conflict with Kiev.

Russian officials have labeled NATO a hostile organization and a tool of American geopolitical influence. They have also argued that the European Union, under NATO's sway, has deviated from its original mission of economic integration and has shifted toward military priorities.
An American exit from Nato should be a useful bargaining chip, I'd think.
nortex97
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Sitrep: Putin seeks broad security agreement, rattles about Oreshnik strike on Berlin.

Quote:

If there's any truth to the 'scoop', what's interesting about the contents is that it does appear to outline a broader security architecture on the macro scale, rather than merely hairsplitting over the 'micro'-level details of post-war troop compositions and such.
The 'three Russian sources' with an alleged ear in the Kremlin told Reuters that Putin's plan includes the demand for Western powers to pledge not only that Ukraine will not join NATO, but that NATO will not expand any further eastward, which primarily only affects Georgia and Moldova at this point, since nearly everyone else has already joined:
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The three Russian sources said Putin wants a "written" pledge by major Western powers not to enlarge the U.S.-led NATO alliance eastwards - shorthand for formally ruling out membership to Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova and other former Soviet republics.
Russia also wants Ukraine to be neutral, some Western sanctions lifted, a resolution of the issue of frozen Russian sovereign assets in the West, and protection for Russian speakers in Ukraine, the three sources said.
This is particularly interesting because it coincides with NYT's latest which suggests Trump is pushing for a "19th century-style" world where US, China, and Russia divide the globe into spheres of influence.
Really, that wouldn't be a 'bad' outcome, imho. It would be nice if Putin and Trump were negotiating for a US withdrawal from Nato as well though. I put this piece about a possible Ukrainian collapse on the newer thread but here it is as well. More at the links.

Could be an unfortunate way to begin the peace negotiations, or alternatively a crushing response to Kiev refusing the Russian terms yet again.

Russia is sending the same delegation to Istanbul that went to Ankara last time.
nortex97
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Training/equipping Mexican cartels:



Ukrainians blew up several bridges over/carrying civilian trains, killing 12 and injuring more, including children. Just 'team freedom's' latest attempt to sabotage any peace negotiations.
docb
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I heard Russia might have lost an aircraft today? It's not yet confirmed by Lord Bebo.
Who?mikejones!
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Lololo
nortex97
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docb said:

I heard Russia might have lost an aircraft today? It's not yet confirmed by Lord Bebo.

Yep. 4 tu95s. They just moved around 50 more into theater. At least a military target for the Ufa this time.

Won't impact the pending cruise missile surge at all.
ETA: sitrep "buffer zone"

J. Walter Weatherman
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Amazing irony in this statement considering Putin has spent the entire war he started droning civilians. But that somehow continuously gets ignored.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/5325651-kherson-drones-civilians-ukraine/amp/

In before the incoming wall of tweets about how those civilians deserved it somehow.
Who?mikejones!
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Russia hasn't hit a single target it didn't intend to, comrade. They all were military in nature, comrade.
Waffledynamics
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nortex97 said:

Ukrainians blew up several bridges over/carrying civilian trains, killing 12 and injuring more, including children. Just 'team freedom's' latest attempt to sabotage any peace negotiations.
Yeah, shame on Ukraine. If they really wanted peace, they would just sit idly by and let Russia kill Ukraine's children with missiles, drones, tanks, guns, and bombs. Maybe hand more of them over so Russia can whisk them away and Russify them.

For peace's sake, of course.
nortex97
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Keep in mind Ukraine claims to down 90+% of the Russian drones. There's no evidence the Russians target apartment buildings/civilian trains etc. I don't need a source to laugh that off. The evidence of the Ukrainians doing that can be found in the past day/month easily.

Also wide boasts about our Ukrainian "allies" not telling the White House about this long planned strike. Again, the partnership at a strategic level is over.
J. Walter Weatherman
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You believe there's "no evidence" because you refuse to believe anything that isn't directly from Russia or Russian mouthpieces. In the meantime there are actual eye witness accounts of it. I guess they are making this up?

https://thehill.com/policy/international/5325651-kherson-drones-civilians-ukraine/amp/

Quote:

"They are killing ordinary civilian people, just elderly people, children, those who are waiting at the bus stop they are killing them, they are taking videos of that and they are putting them online on their Telegram channels," said Oleksandr Prokudin, head of the Kherson Regional Military Administration.

"They are calling it a 'safari,' and they are just laughing at it and there is nothing we can do to combat the drones."


I guess if it's not from RT.com or if Lord Bebo didn't tweet it it can't be true though.
FIDO_Ags
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Quote:

There's no evidence the Russians target apartment buildings/civilian trains etc. I don't need a source to laugh that off


So they just happen to hit apartment buildings randomly. That's your argument?
Who?mikejones!
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nortex97 said:

Keep in mind Ukraine claims to down 90+% of the Russian drones. There's no evidence the Russians target apartment buildings/civilian trains etc. I don't need a source to laugh that off. The evidence of the Ukrainians doing that can be found in the past day/month easily.

Also wide boasts about our Ukrainian "allies" not telling the White House about this long planned strike. Again, the partnership at a strategic level is over.


Lol. There's being skeptical of news because it's probably overly biased, and then there is you.
nortex97
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FIDO_Ags said:

Quote:

There's no evidence the Russians target apartment buildings/civilian trains etc. I don't need a source to laugh that off


So they just happen to hit apartment buildings randomly. That's your argument?

They hit some gerans. Do you think there's evidence Ukraine disarms and kills pow Russians using fpw for training/media coverage of the bloodsport, or that they abducted pensioners to trade for pows from Kursk?

These are again well documented, I just don't post them graphically because it's grotesque, and I know some enjoy the war p0rn.

The bottom line is that the Kiev regime is growing smaller and weaker again today, before they trash the peace proposals tomorrow.
Who?mikejones!
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Yes. It's war. There's no doubt that ukrianian soldiers have killed Russian captives, sometimes in grotesque ways. It becomes odd if that weren't the case.

Oh, by the way, theres plenty of evidence of Russia killing ukrianian captives and ukrianian civilians and invading a sovereign country because putin wants to out the band back together.

Now, if I were in charge of a country who was being invaded, I'd kill every enemy mfer in uniform. There'd be no captives. It'd look like the iwo after the marines were done.
Pumpkinhead
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Blast from the past.

In 2004, a Ukrainian presidential candidate was running against a candidate favored by Putin and he was then mysteriously poisoned. How convenient that was for Russia!

Here is his story:

https://www.bushcenter.org/freedom-collection/viktor-yushchenko_the-attempted-murder-of-viktor-yushchenko

For every post from nortex97, one can easily point out Russia's share of blame and atrocities. Putin is fundamentally a corrupt and evil person and has certainly done his part to contribute to this long and nasty conflict.
 
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