Alta said:

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Yes, I attribute most of those mistakes to overthinking things and not just doing the obvious though.

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Like not using analytics. I think our pairings decisions are baffling.

JCA1 said:

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Yeah. We'll all (me included) ***** and complain about the players, captains, etc. but they're visible, but Europe's true advantage probably lies in a bunch of unknown, behind-the-scenes guys doing the tedious little things that optimizes their players' ability to play well. Which includes everything from acclimating to the time zone, to accommodations, to nutrition and wellness stuff, to actual golf stuff like course set-up and pairings, etc. That's probably what we should concentrate on building the next 2 years rather than constantly debating the captain and the last captain's pick.

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1000%. We need a way to drive continuity and attention to detail behind the scenes. Counting on a revolving door of captains to do that is a fool's errand. There needs to be infrastructure in place to drive strategy and account for details and it's frustrating that our squad leadership effectively rolls up to an incompetent organization like the PGA of America.

Euro's best golfers love the Ryder Cup. America's best, kinda.

Euro wants to win, putts almost always get to the hole, win every hole. But our shots gained data is great.

Euro just built different. Going to take a while to turn that around.

Shots gained is a meaningless stat. According to total shots gained, Russell Henley had a better week than Rahm or Rory.

Alta said:

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Seems like I'm in the minority but part of our problem seems to be we dramatically overthink the Ryder Cup.

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The Europeans switched out the sheets and shampoo in their team hotel. The US definitely isn't overthinking things.

I don't know what type of analysis led to the pairings, but that's the first thing to look at. Second, let them do their usual routine. Third, just stop being a bunch of p***ies. That should actually be first.

I think the biggest issue is they've let it become a monkey on their back. There's no real secret sauce and no magic cure - you just turn that monkey into a gorilla the harder you look for answers. Get the pairings right, have some balls, and be aggressive on the greens.

It was nice to see the US actually win matches on 18 for once.

What I'd like an answer to in the pairings is if any consideration was made to adjust them after all the rain. The course set up sucked for our team once the rain took the roll out of the fairways for our shorter and low ball flight guys. They were having a birdie-fest and the groups with Morikawa and Henley in them were fighting from 20+ yards back every other hole.

aggiegolfer2012 said:

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What I'd like an answer to in the pairings is if any consideration was made to adjust them after all the rain. The course set up sucked for our team once the rain took the roll out of the fairways for our shorter and low ball flight guys. They were having a birdie-fest and the groups with Morikawa and Henley in them were fighting from 20+ yards back every other hole.

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I doubt they gave much consideration to adjusting the pairings based on the rain.

I had my reservations about Scottie/Henley from the jump. It seemed like we were putting way too much stock into "they paired well together at the Presidents Cup" when they were up against the likes of Tom Kim and Taylor Pendrith.

In fairness, I think datagolf had Scottie/Henley as one of our top rated potential foursomes pairings (granted I wonder how many possible Scottie pairings would be highly rated simply because of Scottie). But like you said, I don't think that was accounting for the way the course played post-rain.

I also simply don't think Russell Henley is a dude in that escalated situation. When you looked at the Euro duo, you looked at Scottie, and then you looked at Russ, one of those guys clearly didn't belong. Russ is great over 20 events of 72 holes each. To his credit, he looked good in singles too. But he's not a foxhole guy that you want to pair your best player with against the Euros.

Morikawa was, at best, misused in this cup. Regardless of the rain, I think he should have been four ball only. There's an idea that maybe we should have paired whim with a bigger hitter and carved out a role for him built around his iron play, but I don't think that would have been a good idea. 1) He's putting like ass. I don't want him standing over putts in crucial foursome swing moments. 2) Who's the "long hitter" we should have paired him with? I wouldn't want to risk wasting Cam Young or Bryson on a fingers-crossed foursomes pairing with Morikawa.

Part of the problem with all this discussion though is that the squad was so thin, especially as it related to guys who can handle a long, wet Bethpage Black. Basically everyone outside of Bryson, Scottie, Pat, X and Cam had big flaws in terms of their potential in foursomes on that course. Keegan tried to stick with the plan and it didn't pay off. Granted, I know this isn't an excuse for running Morikawa/English out there a second time, but no one who was sitting on Saturday morning would have made a difference against Tommy/Rory.

I think there's also an interesting macro Ryder Cup evolution factor at play here too. In 2023, the Euros quietly ushered in a new era of course setup that deviated from tradition. Going back a long time, the Euros had success making their courses short, tight with thick rough. In 2008, USA finally got the message and made courses long, wide with shaved rough.

With the teams so "evenly matched" now (at least from a general skillset perspective), advantages have to be sought in more nuanced ways. In 2023, the Euros looked deep to find their edge. Marco Simone didnt play like Le Golf Nacional or Gleneagles or Celtic Manor. It was setup very specifically to seek out certain shots (175-225 yards) and try to omit as many short irons as possible.

I think our strategy this year ultimately defaulted back to conventional USA course setup logic. Keegan basically said so after the Sunday round. It was a mistake before the rain and an even bigger mistake after the rain. Hopefully we can learn a good lesson going forward, but we tend to stink at remembering our lessons from the past ha.

At the end of the day, missed putts = no cup.

JCA1 said:

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NLU's recap show made an interesting point I hadn't thought of. Basically, we have an analytics department crunching all the numbers. But they're computer nerds, not golfers so when they conflict with the captain/golfers' gut feelings, the analytics lose and the gut wins. The Euros have Molinari as their numbers guy so they trust his opinions much more.

Wouldn't surprise me if there's something to that.

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Exactly. Like I posted before, we need our own Molinari or recreate him in the aggregate (ie with Webb + a couple nerds). Whoever the captain is needs to be the executor of the plan devised by the nerds. It's really no different conceptually than the Moneyball A's.

And there really shouldn't even be much room for gut feel. Ideally, we've picked our team with specific roles in mind for each player. Lock it in far in advance. Maybe there's room for some re-assessment of the plan on the week of the tournament if someone shows up without their game, but that should run through the nerds.

The captains shouldn't get a say in the pairings

Picking smarter pairings would be great.

Using some statistical analysis would be helpful. Not being married to it would also be helpful.

A few quick post-Cup thoughts on our personnel:

Scottie
I'm curious where he goes from here with regard to the Ryder Cup. This is the second Cup in a row he's entered as #1 in the world and second in a row that he's been embarrassed. If he's the competitor that we think he is, I feel like he needs to make winning the 27 cup a personal priority and start holding every other stakeholder accountable... from his fellow players to the captains to the behind-the-scenes infrastructure. He needs to treat it like he's prepping for the Masters.

I think we also need to be open to the idea that Scottie should be a best ball + singles player in 2027. The evidence is growing that Scottie is difficult to pair with in foursomes. Part of it is the Tiger factor, where is partners have this constant feeling that he's above them and they're letting him down. Part of it is the Euros gun for him.

The way the roster looks today, we won't really have a choice but for him to go 4-5 sessions. Our dude depth just isn't there. But given how the last two cups have gone for him, a fresh Scottie strictly playing his own ball and going 3-0 isn't a bad outcome. If there's one guy I could see having success with Scottie in foursomes if he can make the 2027 squad, it's Will Zalitoris. Will sees Scottie has a goofy kid from junior golf. Not on some pedestal above him.

Bryson
A few years ago, the thought of Bryson on another Euro-hosted Ryder Cup team made me nervous. In the new era of course setup, I'm totally good with it. Hope he keeps his game up and makes it in 2027.

Xander/Cantlay
I still don't get much of a vibe that these two really love or gravitate toward the Ryder Cup, but it doesn't matter because they are so clearly two of our best players and probably will be for a long time.

JT
I hope his game is coming back into form because we reeeeally need him in this event. He should always get the benefit of the doubt if he's on the bubble.

Spieth/Max
We missed these guys so much this past weekend. They're dudes who aren't scared of the Euros and want the ball in the highest pressure caldrons. The team would look so much different with these two in good form. I think we'll see a Justin Rose-like renaissance from Spieth in the next couple years. I'm sure it killed him to play so bad in 2023 and not have a chance to make up for it this past weekend.

Cam Young
Baller. You're welcome back anytime. Hope he can keep his game up.

Mav McNealy/Will Z
Obviously Will has to figure out how to stay healthy. I think Mav is due for a breakout soon and will be playing on the 2027 team.

Henley/Spaun
No issue with either of them making a team going forward, but in limited roles.

Koivun/Clanton
Would be nice to see one of these guys emerge and give us some fresh blood

Burns/Morikawa
Their benefit of the doubt should be done going forward. I feel bad for Sam because I can see how much he wants it. His peers say he has dude-like qualities and you can sort of see it. Part of me thinks he has imposter syndrome when the lights go on at the Ryder Cup though. It would be nice to see him snag a couple big wins between now and 2027 so maybe he can go into the cup with a little more confidence. I feel similarly about Collin as I did about Rickie after the 2023 cup. I'm good.

Patrick Reed
There's no reason we shouldn't court him and seriously consider him for a spot in 2027. Bryson should talk to LIV leaders and get him on the Crushers. Let those two build up a comradery that they can take to Adare Manor.

The last 2 cups there have been a couple of guys out of nowhere make the team who you never really considered. Rome had Clark and Harmen after they won majors. This year was Spaun and Griffin. You never know where someone's game will be in 2 years. Would love to see Max get back in to form because he has played really well in both the RC and P Cup.

I think the issue with Scottie in the RC is simple. What makes him great week to week is that he doesn't make big mistakes. He never doubles, he makes a ton of pars, and runs into birdies. Over the course of a 72 hole stroke play event, the winner is the one who makes the fewest mistakes.

Match play needs aggression. Scottie's play is all about throttling aggression.

The Milkman said:

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I think the issue with Scottie in the RC is simple. What makes him great week to week is that he doesn't make big mistakes. He never doubles, he makes a ton of pars, and runs into birdies. Over the course of a 72 hole stroke play event, the winner is the one who makes the fewest mistakes.

Match play needs aggression. Scottie's play is all about throttling aggression.

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He was #1 on tour in birdie or better percentage this year. He's not just avoiding mistakes and running into birdies.

The guy borderline shanked a wedge into the bunker on 18 in a big moment in a match. Him and the Ryder Cup is very mental at this point.

98Ag99Grad said:

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The last 2 cups there have been a couple of guys out of nowhere make the team who you never really considered. Rome had Clark and Harmen after they won majors. This year was Spaun and Griffin. You never know where someone's game will be in 2 years. Would love to see Max get back in to form because he has played really well in both the RC and P Cup.

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Yea those kind of guys are basically interchangeable every two years. One thing I was just looking at is how many guys on our recent teams didn't fall under one of the following categories:

1) Played in multiple Ryder Cups
2) Won a major or Fedex Cup prior to current Ryder Cup season
3) Up and comer (27 or younger)

2018 - Finau (1)
2021 - Boog, English, Finau, Cantlay (4)
2023 - Wyndham, Harman, Homa, Burns (4)
2025 - Spaun, Henley, English, Griffin, Young, Burns (6)

Contrast that to Europe:

2018 - Noren and Oleson (2)
2021 - Fleetwood, Hatton, Wiesberger (3)
2023 - Hojgaard and Straka (2)
2025 - Hojgaard and Straka (2)

Not sure what exactly to make of that, other than USA had a lot of guys make it this year without much pedigree. And they're of the "veterans who had a good year" mold. Other than Young and maybe Burns, it's not "up and coming" guys that we're hoping will be a big part of the team going forward.

I wish the younger guys like Koivun, Clanton, and Sargent would start playing on the Tour once they have their card. Clanton and Sargent are out there now but both spent an extra year in college and Koivun is doing the same. Maybe someone like Neil Shipley who was a good AM and will be off the KFT next season is a young guy who will step-up. Need Gotterup to keep progressing and make a P Cup team too.

now that the cup is over, keegan and PGA getting hammered for the course setup for being way too easy. What do we think there? There were very FEW bogeys and a TON of birdies. I don't think it should play like a US Open, but do agree that we shouldn't be seeing guys spin it with ease from the rough and from fairway bunkers.

Scottie makes a ****ton of birdies. He has also been good in singles. I think it's the team aspect. He's a lone alpha wolf and it just doesn't fit him. Tiger had a bad Ryder Cup record but was 4-2-2 in singles. Scottie has a bad Ryder Cup record but is 2-0-1 in singles. Tiger was the best match player of all time winning 6 straight USGA championships.

There's just something about putting these two with a partner that doesn't work. Honestly, some of it is the partner. Maybe it's a bit of intimidation to carry your weight with the world #1, I don't know. But it's not just been Tiger and Scottie ****ing up these matches. And some of it my be the opponents extra fired up to attack pins and attack putts against the world #1, which when playing in pairs the mistakes in trying to do that oftentimes get covered

DannyDuberstein said:

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Scottie makes a ****ton of birdies. He has also been good in singles. I think it's the team aspect. He's a lone alpha wolf and it just doesn't fit him. Tiger had a bad Ryder Cup record but was 4-2-2 in singles. Scottie has a bad Ryder Cup record but is 2-0-1 in singles. Tiger was the best match player of all time winning 6 straight USGA championships.

There's just something about putting these two with a partner that doesn't work. Honestly, some of it is the partner. Maybe it's a bit of intimidation to carry your weight with the world #1, I don't know. But it's not just been Tiger and Scottie ****ing up these matches. And some of it my be the opponents extra fired up to attack pins and attack putts against the world #1, which when playing in pairs the mistakes in trying to do that oftentimes get covered

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Exactly. If the right circumstances exist in 2027, I think we should be open to the idea of Scottie playing only four-ball + singles. Let him exert all his energy on his own ball and be fresh on Sat/Sun. I think we were going to do that with Brooks (who also falls into this category) in 2023 but the Friday beatdown forced him into the lineup on Sat morning.

zgolfz85 said:

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now that the cup is over, keegan and PGA getting hammered for the course setup for being way too easy. What do we think there? There were very FEW bogeys and a TON of birdies. I don't think it should play like a US Open, but do agree that we shouldn't be seeing guys spin it with ease from the rough and from fairway bunkers.

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I think we errored on the side of setting up the course for a traditional USA vs Europe contest. But the teams are too similar now from a skillset standpoint. Course setup advantages these days have to be well thought out and intricate, with contingencies for different types of weather and other external factors.

It's not enough for USA-hosted Ryder Cups anymore to just default to cutting the rough and making the fairways wide.

I don't put Burns and Morikawa in the same conversation with benefit of the doubt. Morikawa was real solid last year and the start of this one. It went south, but south for him is still a bunch of t20 level performances, and the other options weren't doing much better.

Burns just isn't at the same level. He doesn't hit the ball well enough and really leans on the putter, it's not sustainable. When the putter isn't there, like it wasn't this week, he's JAG.

Morikawa doesn't want to, but he's got to find a way to add some speed. The poofy cut driver just isn't going to get it done much longer. When it's on it is okay-ish, but when it isn't he's just short and inaccurate.

I'd give Leonard a crack at captain.

For what it's worth, I had no issue with Morikawa making this year's team. The wet, long layout really hampered his ability to make an impact. His pedigree is among the top 12 USA players, no doubt. He's probably top 5-6 if you rank all the USA players playing at their best. I've been selling stock in him over the last few months but like you said, he hasn't really been THAT bad.

Burns seems like a guy who other dudes think is a dude. I put some weight into that.

He also has a little bit of Sea Island syndrome in that he's consistent sample size player who generally falls short when the lights are the brightest. He really needs a big breakthrough win or two that gives him the full confidence that he IS a dude. We'll see how the next two years ago.

If he's a bubble guy again in 2027, I'd look in a different direction. But I think he's eventually going to emerge and possibly make the team as a lock.

I wanted Young over Burns in 23 and Mav this year.
Think Mav could've been a good Scottie foursomes partner.

JCA1 said:

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Apparently Brandel floated Justin Leonard as a potential captain. Gotta say, that does make some sense. Clearly loves the Ryder Cup and would have the time to dedicate to it. Probably the closest American comparison to Luke Donald that I can think of.

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He went to my high school, so I approve this choice! Even if he was a horn.....

They said on the NLU recap that Scheffler had to call the captains Friday night to say he should be teeing off on the odds

Yeah his and Henleys caddie figured it out right? That's just inexcusable.